Merit Badges

[BelieveInScouting]

Sooooo, I have been told time and again, by various informed people, that once a Merit Badge Counselor signs off a complete blue card, the folks from the youth's unit aren't allowed to quiz or question the youth on the material from the Merit Badge.

Am I right?

My understanding is this:

If there's physical problems with the card: if it isn't filled out right or something, let the youth know he needs to take it back and have it corrected...

If for some reason someone in the youth's Unit has a question about requirements completed, these should be brought up to the MB Counselor and not ask the youth to explain, or 're-test' the youth...

Sure there would be nothing wrong with... let's say ... a Scoutmaster chatting with the youth and asking, 'what kind of stuff did you learn when you were doing such-and-such merit badge?' He can ask generic things, but he is not allowed to go through the requirements and ask for 'proof' that he did each one...

I know sometimes at a winter camp or a summer camp, they zip through some of those badges, and we just cringe at some of of the stuff they leave out, but we HAVE to accept that signed blue card... so be it.

I had a youth tell me that some people in his unit often quiz them when they bring back their signed blue cards.....

[Nuts4Scouts]

No, "some people" in the boy's unit should not be "quizzing" boys about their Merit Badge requirements.

However, there is not a whole lot you can do about it. You could mention what you have heard to your District (or Council) Advancement Chair, but that is about it.

Unfortunately, there are some units out there that believe the Joe Shmo version of Scouting is better than the BSA version. They add attendance & other arbitrary requirements to rank advancement. They insist that punishment by doing sit-ups or singing & dancing to silly songs in front of their peers, is not hazing, but building character. They refuse to let boys earn Merit Badges until after they have reached First Class. They turn BOR's into long interrogations & re-test on everything the boy has ever done. Their version of Boy Led is having the SM plan the Troop calendar & then tell the boys what they should be doing. They put time limits on how long a boy can take to earn a Merit Badge. They think if a boy is not "Eagle material" they should refuse to approve any Eagle project. They think that a boy who earns Eagle too "early" is demeaning the award & so they hold him back until he is "old enough" or "ready".

We can't fix everyone else's unit, & unless we happen to be the UC for one of those non-BSA program type units, we should not try. The only thing we can do is to make sure the units our son's are in follow the BSA program. If they do not we have a choice. We can simply put up with it, work to fix the problems, or we can move to a different Troop.

[BelieveInScouting]

Thank you for your reply. It's sad that there are so many people who do the things you mentioned in your post. Time limits for merit badges? YIPES... what a shame.

I would agree with that ONLY under just a couple of situations... let's say... working on E-prep. You take the badge in a class at winter camp, then two years later you're still trying to talk to that guy in your community.... How much does the scout remember?

I see nothing wrong with throwing out a few questions... or better yet, just asking the boy to describe something he learned. If the boy did the merit badge, he should of course know (or remember) enough to bring up in a chat...

Anyway, again - thanks for your feedback. I'm an MB Counselor and I had a couple of boys ask me these questions yesterday... they get a lot of grief in their unit...

[ScoutmasterJerry]

On Merit Badges...
First let us not forget the intent of Merit Badges.. it is not to turn the Scout into an expert on lets say.. Aviation..or Composite materials...
The intent of Merit Badges is to introduce Scouts to a variety of lifes challenges, occupations, and activities. A Scout that earns the Backpacking Merit Badge is not ready for Everest.
The short answer is NO.. retesting is not a part of the program. The expectation of the Scoutmaster or anyone else should be that the Scout learned something about the Merit Badge subject. There is a reasonable expectation with some Merit Badges like Pioneering or Cooking that a Scout should be able to tie knots and cook etc... but never should the Scout be placed in a position to retest.
Once the Counselor signs off..its done.

Here is a great Case in point...
I want you all to look at the Merit Badge Citizenship in the World. There is not a 12/13 year old in America that can complete that with out a bunch of coaching. And/or retain the information that is required. Thank god for the internet to aid in this endeavor. We just had a couple Scouts finish this MB and I assisted one of them (my son).. It was harder than any High School civics class and equal to History 101 in College. And I consider myself pretty savy in Civics, American Politics, and history..
But looking at the Spirit of the MB and the intent... We are not trying to teach civics to the next Secretary of State at age 13.. we are trying to develop the interest in the Boy to learn more and maybe become a future Sec. of State.
Second.. there are NO RANK REQUIREMENTS to begin Merit Badges. Period.

[A J Mako]

I would agree with that ONLY under just a couple of situations... let's say... working on E-prep. You take the badge in a class at winter camp, then two years later you're still trying to talk to that guy in your community.... How much does the scout remember?

That's up to the merit badge counselor who signs the card to ensure. If the Scout learns when he completes each requirement, he'll retain enough knowledge. If he just cuts and pastes information and the counselor accepts that, he hasn't learned and won't retain.

Going back to your original question, I think what all those people are telling you is a misinterpretation of the merit badge program. By rule, once the counselor signs the card, signifying that the Scout has done the work required, the merit badge can't be taken away. The unit can't retest the Scout, ask him to re-demonstrate his knowledge, or otherwise prove he did the work. The unit can ask questions, during a BOR for example, about what the Scout learned from the experience--even what he remembers or what he did. That is, after all, what a review is.

This is definitely something the unit should want to do if only to make sure the assigned merit badge counselor did his or her job properly. If the counselor added requirements or demanded more than the requirements asked for, the unit wants to know that so they can find another counselor. If the counselor ignored requirements or changed the requirements ("describe" instead of "show" for example), the unit wants to know that as well.

I should point out, the Scout and his buddy should be able to tell what kind of a merit badge counselor he has at the first meeting. That's when the counselor is supposed to go over the requirements and let the Scout know what the expectations are. The SM should follow up with the Scout on that meeting, and if it looks like the Scout isn't going to learn anything or might get put through the ringer, assign a different counselor.

[Advancement Chair Mom]

I joined this forum because of this thread. This is something our troop has been dealing with. For the most part, I agree that once a blue card is signed off we should not be questioning it. BUT.......when it comes to summer camp, and the mb's earned there, our troops policy is to check them over. A couple examples of mb's earned at BSA's summer camp (that we have questioned) are sports, cooking, and believe it or not, Cit in Community, and Cit in World. Now first let me say this was NOT Trail to Eagle camp. For the Cit mb's we have had them go over the info "learned" with our troop mbc's. For sports, they only have to show me #s 4 and 5, and cooking show me #7c. This is our troop policy, not mine. Every year I get yelled at by new parents who do not realize that these requirement could not have been met at camp. BSA rules state that no merit badge requirements are to be altered. If the scout has done the work, there should be no problem recalling the info a couple of weeks later. We now drill into the scouts heads (before camp) that some mb's earned at camp will need to be co-signed by our troop. In the end most parents end up agreeing with our policy, and most scouts are proud because they truly "EARNED" the merit badge.
Thank You for this great forum. It has been a wealth of information for me.

Advancement Chair Mom

[1st Mate]

Advacement Chair Mom,

May I recommend a different tack?

You are addressing the result of the problem by creating a troop policy that is in direct conflict with the BSA advancement policies.

You need to address the problem itself, which is the training and job performance of the summer camp staff, or it will never get resolved.

It is important that the Program Director understands the proper advancment procedures. For instance its fine to have youth staff teach the merit badge skils but the scouts must be tested individually and by a registered adult counselor for that merit badge. The staff needs to know that the requirement cannot be altered, that nothing can be added to or deleted.

Most councils have a pre-meeting a week or so before camp or a leaders meeting the first day. These are the knids of issues that need to be brought up.

Also, it is important for the adult unit leaders to spot check how the classes are being done and to give feedback to the Program Director.

Please consider that the BSA policies are not just for when they meet the needs of your unit. They are policies that are to be observed at all times, creating an overriding unit policy is not an option, nor is it ap[propriate for the camp staff to ignore them. This problem should be able to be resolved without violating the advancement policies by the unit or the camp staff.

[Nuts4Scouts]

Just because it is a Troop policy does not make it correct.

Most Summer Camps will include with their list of available merit badges, the MB requirements that must be completed prior to camp & brought with the Scout. This would include things like Cooking #7 and Sports #'s 4 & 5.

For merit badges only partially completed at camp the boys need to finish with another MB counselor for that particular badge.

For the merit badges you mentioned, Citizen in Community/Nation, Sports, & Cooking, unless you are are a registered MB Counselor for those merit badges you can not sign off on any parts of them.

Just because you are Troop Advancement Chair does not mean you are qualified to sign off on all Merit Badges, or to double check the Scouts work on things already signed off. This is a bad policy, weather yours or the Troop's.

A better way would be to talk to your Council Advancement Chair about the quality of the Summer Camp Merit Badge Counselors. Have the quality of the program improved for all of the campers! If they are still not doing a good job then you need to let your SM know that he should not recommend taking the badly counseled MB's. It is the SM's job to approve a Scout's request to begin a MB.

Scouts can still be proud of having "truly earned a merit badge" if they do it the right way, with out being double checked by Troop adults going against BSA policy.

[Advancement Chair Mom]

1, We are in contact with the council in regards to the merit badges. The council, and the D.E. are working on this issue, and they support the way we are handling it. We have never, not given the merit badge to the scout after meeting with them. We are not retesting them. As I said earlier, the scout is meeting with our troop mbc for the individual badge in question for 5 minutes, a couple of weeks after camp. Unfortunately, the merit badges are being taught by YOUTH who are employed by the camp. The actual mbc who is signing the cards is handed a stack to sign after meeting the boys for about 10 minutes during the week. The council does not have the funds needed to employ someone to test each scout individually. Many of our camps mbc's have multiple merit badges they are responsible for.

2, I only sign off on blue cards that I am a verified registered merit badge councilor for. All the other cards are signed by verified registered councilor for the particular merit badge.

3, Regarding the Citizenship merit badges, As I stated this is not trail to Eagle camp. The week that our boys go to camp there is a scout leader from another district who is doing these badges as a courtesy with the boys. He is doing these at an off time. They are not being offered by the camp. They do not know in advance what merit badges this councilor will do. With this said it is difficult for the scout to accomplish requirement #3 (Cit in Community) while at summer camp.

1st Mate, and Nuts4Scouts Thank You for your recommendations.


Nuts4Scouts, I would like to add, because I am advancement chair, I have been fully trained on advancement procedures, and merit badge counseling. I am the person in our troop who takes care of our mbc list. I am responsible for taking care of the adult leader volunteer apps, and mbc apps. I am responsible for the new scout apps also. I am in constant touch with our district advancement committee, and help all of the Eagle candidates with the administrative parts of their Eagle applications.

In training I was given a copy of Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088D.

I have read and reread this booklet several times. Where is it stated that once a blue card is signed it cannot be reviewed?

Thank You for all your help in this matter. It is easier to change old troop policy if I have something in print to show the committee.

[1st Mate]

Unfortunately, the merit badges are being taught by YOUTH who are employed by the camp. The actual mbc who is signing the cards is handed a stack to sign after meeting the boys for about 10 minutes during the week. The council does not have the funds needed to employ someone to test each scout individually. Many of our camps mbc's have multiple merit badges they are responsible for.

Hi AC MOM

We have probably all heard this said about rules, whether in scouting or outside of scouting, as a reason for not following rules. Do not be swayed by this red herring. Following the BSA advancement policies has no cost associated with it.

Having a merit badge counselor only sign requirements that the scout has been tested on costs no more than signing cards on scouts not tested. This is a matter of integrity not budget.

Having trained scouts teach the badge is perfectly fine. The problem comes in where too many camps have built up the reputation of being merit badge factories. A good example of this is ask the scoutmasters in your area "how was summer camp last year?" If they answer by telling you how many merit badges the scouts earned in total then you have a problem in your council.

Summer camp should NEVER be about the number of merit badges a scout brings home. It should be about fun, fellowship and living the adventure of scouting with fellow scouts for every waking moment of the week.

We have created an environment in many council camps where once you have harvested all the merit badges you need for whatever level of advancment you want then there is no incentive left for attending summer camp.

I urge you to continue pressing the council and the camp administration to follow the advancement polices and procedures of the BSA. By the way the current issue of the BSA Advancement Guide is now series "E" there are a few changes from the "D" series.

I would keep supporting the Youth staff as teachers but stand rigid on the counselors creating the time and the mechanisms to test the scouts individually and only sign off on scouts who have been tested and passed by the counselor themselves.

Good Luck,

[WB Bear]

Very well said 1st Mate!