A new level of cub scouting...

[CommissionerTim]

A few years ago National BSA revamped the cub scouting program... they took away the Lion Den program... now they're rethinking thinigs again... now they're researching the idea of adding a pre-school/kindergartner program to bring in more members.

We want to hear from you... what do you think about adding another den to the cub scout program?

[Nuts4Scouts]

IMO this is simply a move to increase $ and numbers.

Kindergarten & (especially) Pre-School kids are just not ready. Their reading is either limited to single syllables or nonexistent. Their attention span is measured in seconds. Comprehension is limited.

It would simply be a weekly play date & I have better things to do than volunteer to be in charge of a play date.

By 5th grade the boys are already getting burned out on Cub Scouts. What does BSA think will happen if they start them off in Pre-School?!?

If BSA is going by GSUSA's program, the Pre-School thing never really got off the ground. Daisies (Kinder) are currently simply crafty play dates. GSUSA is in the process of revamping it's programs & the Daisy program is being changed to a 2 year program (K-1) & completely redone.

From what I have heard, the BSA pilot Lion programs are not doing very well. I am, however interested in what they plan on telling the girls in the one co-ed program, at the end of the year. Perhaps something like - Sorry girls, no Cub Scouts for you. This was just a teaser & an opportunity to get LFL instituted in your area.


BTW - Change is not bad. Changing & updating is a good thing. Change to simply increase the bottom line is very bad.

[CommissionerTim]

I have to disagree... I like the idea of having a Lions Den for the pre-schoolers and kindergartners. All of our programs are strickly age appropriate for all the boys, there's no reason why BSA cannot provide materials for this age group. Even if it is mostly arts and crafts type of stuff. There are so many packs that already accomodate the younger siblings because their parents are already leaders in the pack. Even my pack has leaders and parents with younger siblings that come to the meetings because their son is a member. We already provide coloring books and include them in some of the projects the other cub scouts do during the meetings. So adding the Lion's Den would be seemlessly painless and would help the pack in the long run... I say bring it on, we can use the help from BSA.

[WB Bear]

I agree that an earlier level would add to the numbers and money to the program. But what’s wrong with exposing more boys and leaders to Scouting? Other programs, sports etc., are starting earlier which I am not too sure is good. There has been a lot of discussion about the problems keeping the boys from participating in Scouting due to sports and other activities so maybe, with a good age appropriate program, we maybe can instill Scouting in the boys and parents earlier.

Age appropriateness is so very important in our program. BSA has devoted extensive and well educated time into the developing the age appropriateness of the program and the activities.

[A J Mako]

Perhaps what would be best would be something in-between. I kind of agree with Nuts4Scouts. A 5-year Cub Scout program might increase numbers and attract more families to Scouting on one end, but it could very well decrease the numbers on the other end (or actually the middle).

So what I would propose would be something along the lines of the Lone Scout program for Kinders. There would be BSA program materials and BSA registration, but rather than forming dens and attaching them to packs, it would be strictly a parent/child program.

I would view it as a transitional thing. Lions would be individual parent/child teams like Tigers, but no den meetings or pack meetings unless a group of Lion teams wanted to get together for something like that. From there they would move into Tigers where the den/pack structure is added.

[CommissionerTim]

AJ... that's a great idea... I would be willing to push it.

[slyfox736]

Although I feel that BSA would produce an age-appropriate program for younger scouts, I am concerned about the burnout issue and "play date" concept. I have had some difficulty with parent participation in den and pack activities at times, and know that additional parental involvement at that age would be required for the child to have the best experience.

While Scouting IS a game with a purpose, what exactly would the purpose be for that age group? Would we be parenting coaches and a physical activity option?

Melinda McCue
Cubmaster, Troop Committee Member
a good ol' Fox and Staffer, too!

[1st Mate]

As with any aspect of any program it has positive and negative aspects to it, and different people will see different strengths and weaknesses. The BSA has a mission to deliver a quality scouting experience to every eligible youth. If they determine through their testing that there is a large enough desire for such a program and that there are resources available to run it then they have the right to offer it as a program. Time will determine its effectiveness.


Thank you for saying that it was only a few years ago that the BSA dropped Lion Cubs. I was in the last class of Lion Cubs and it was 40 years ago:eek:

[Nuts4Scouts]

I do not think anyone said BSA had no right to offer this program. What will be, will be, even if it includes co-ed kinderscouts.

The original poster simply asked for our personal opinions on the idea.

[1st Mate]

I did not mean to imply that anyone was saying the BSA did not have the right. I was just meaning that developing and implementing programs is one of the responsibilities unique to the national office. Although there are select volunteers who help develop and test these ideas it will happen or not happen based only on a decision of the National office.

I apologize for any confusion I caused.

[ladydi5995]

What will be will be and we will adapt. I do not think its a great idea for OUR pack. We have a hard enough time getting parents as leaders even for Tigers and then they don't show up half the time. I can't imagine trying to have another den or 2 to beg and plead leaders for. Love our Scouts and Parents they all great. they just have that lil problem with the word "commitment"

[SuperDad]

Based on my personal experience with the Tiger Cub program as a former tiger coach and now cub master, I would not eagerly embrace a level for even younger boys. Frankly, I believe the tiger den is too young.

Getting leaders for a den is a year-by-year issue, and those issues will exist whether starting in kindergarten, first grade or second grade. Some years a good one volunteers. Other years, you're begging, not sure if you'll get a good one or not. Every now and then, you wouldn't have the only one who volunteers. This is not an issue based on the age of the boy.

The issue of younger siblings wanting to be involved is not a problem. We treat cub scouting as a family event anyway, so younger siblings are involved at a certain level. On pack camping trips, the entire family is at least invited if not encouraged to attend. We have a time at the end of our regular pinewood derby for "other" racers, and I smiled recently when I noticed a little sister was proudly displaying her "Cub Scout Pinewood Derby" patch on her Brownie vest.

But there are also certain activities, and there SHOULD be activities, that the younger sibling has to wait on HIS time to experience. Even after joining, there are things that have to wait, for example knife safety and usage during the Bear program. This anticipation should keep his attention and create desire to officially join when his time, his season of scouting, begins.

[jarnold621]

I don't think adding a younger program, before Tigers, is a good idea. The Tiger program works very well as an introduction to Scouting. We also encourage familes, older and younger siblings to participate in Den and Pack functions, so there isn't any exclusion. I don't think the younger boys are ready for the structure and time of Den and Pack meetings. Sometimes the Tigers aren't quite ready. This does not need fixing.

[Scouting Mom]

Kindergarten, yes, but not pre-school.

More and more places are requiring kindergarten to be a full school day. More and more kids are being expected to increase their attention span to accommodate that. They are doing it successfully. These boys are not too young for it.

I work with preschoolers. I can tell you that by the time they are 5 most children can do a variety of activities, have a variety of skills. My kindergarten son desperately wanted to be a Cub Scout like his older brother. He has tagged around with the older den for the last three years, doing many of the activities that the older boys did. We were told a couple of years ago that Lion Cubs were a done deal and would be in our district in time for him to join. It didn't happen, much to his disappointment.

June 1st is circled on the calendar and marked as the day he can finally be a Cub Scout.

Now, the expectations need to be tailored to the age group. We can't expect them to sit still for an hour. We need to keep them up and moving and involved. But I think it can be done and done well.

[jneuhaus]

I don't think you need to add a younger den to the program but we need to do something with the siblings when they come to the pack meetings. The issue becomes sisters not brothers of the cubs. You can not put the sisters into the tiger den when they become of age. Organizing the siblings and giving them activites to do during the pack meeting would help in making the Pack meeting more organized.

John Neuhaus
Good OLD Bob White 2:D

[Westergaard]

I feel that we could use another den in the cub pack. I see nothing wrong with kindergarten boys being involved in the packs.
I don't feel that burn out is an issue if the packs are providing a quality program for all scouts.
My daughter is a Daisy scout, age 6, and she has participated in her brother's troop and can tie just as many knots as the boys can.
I see no reason why kindergarten aged boys shouldn't be in the program.
In Australia, they have boys from 6 yrs to 26 yrs in the program. We should be doing the same here.

[BoatDaddy]

Each Pack has a different "personality". I can see where a K program would work for some but not others.

The Tiger program has had both pros & cons in our Pack. On the Pro side it has gotten parents involved in Cub Scouts from day 1 and kept many involved as volunteers. In some cases when we get to Webelos, we have to ask parents to stop coming to meetings to give the boys some independance. On the Con side, finding a good balance at Pack meetings to meet the needs of both 1st and 5th grade boys is a constant challenge.

Based on that last comment, I would have an issue with introducing a K Den into our Pack as I would worry about the balance at Pack Meetings.

On the flip side, spring roundup has already gotten the K kids involved with our Pack over the summer. So to some degree we already a K program....

[cjis1982]

I completly agree with Scouting Mom. Kindergarteners-yes; preschoolers-no. Like her, I also work with preschoolers, but I also work with kindergarteners, elementary school students, and middle school students on a daily basis. Being able to work with all of these different age groups at one time I can easily assess their abilities. Boys in kindergarten are ready for the scouting program.

I also work closely with the Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, and Girl Scouts programs at my church. Every year, I receive numerous complaints from parents wanting to put their 5 or 6 year old son in Cub Scouts. As a leader for all three programs it is hard telling a parent that their five year old daughter can join Girl Scouts, but their 5 year old son must wait until he is 7 or in the first grade before he can enter Cub Scotus.

[BoatDaddy]

After attending the BSA Annual Meeting earlier this year, I have a totally new view on this topic.

Recruiting is NOT the issue. We are getting ~1/2 million new cubs registering every year.

Retention IS the issue. We lose ~380,000 of those within 1 year.

I'd rather see BSA spend its time working on helping Packs grow stronger with the existing program vs. adding a new year to the program and potentially making the retention issue worse.

[1st Mate]

I absolutely agree that retention is the problem, The interesting thing to see though is that it is the same units that regularly lose the most scouts in a community. In contrast it seems that other units are consistently retaining scouts year after year and recruiting more scouts on a consistent basis.

The problem is not the scouting program, the problem is the implementation of that program within certain units.

The BSA's role is to create the program and the resources needed to carry it out. It is the charter organizations job to select and approve quality leaders who can do the job.

The BSA already provides ample training and resources, they cannot also run the meetings and outings for the units. Vist a poorly lead unit and they will tell you the problem is that "they" aren't doing a good job. They could be the district, the council, the BSA...but the problem is always other people, and so they wait for others to come along and make THEIR unit better.

The only solution to poor retention is better unit programs, and the only way to get that is by selecting the right leaders at the unit level, and that is not the BSA's job.

There are great resources available from the BSA for any unit to use to learn what to look for in a scout leader, and how to find those people and recuit them successfully.

As a Scouting trainer for many years I can almost tell you by the end of basic training who will do well and who will not, it has little to do with organization, or aptitude. People who make good scout leaders smile A LOT, they enjoy playing no matter what they are playing at, and they like other people and are interested in them. They are friendly without being smothering, and they are willing to listen to others.

They are also about one out of every twenty or thirty people I see go through training.

[CommissionerTim]

A unit in our community is fairly strong (right now) and has been for a while, but they also have a few other units to compete with within the school district. When I say compete, I am talking about the word of mouth from the boys wanting to be with their friends. I would guess this is happening in every community that has more than one unit within the same school district trying to recruit boys into their unit. Whenever one unit is bigger than the others then the bigger will always recruit more boys than the other units. This will always be a problem for the smaller units until the bigger unit has a huge turnover or falling out with leadership. Therefore the boys will leave the bigger unit and hopefully to the smaller units keeping the district numbers the same or close.

I feel that in order to retain the number of boys from year to year, the COR and Unit Committee Chair should focus more on unit leader retention. Asking the leaders to commit to their leadership position for 2 or 3 or even 5 years or longer if that leader so desires would greatly increase the level of programming and retention of the boys. This is what I'm seeing with our bigger unit in my community. Strong leadership that is willing to commit to volunteering for more than one year and even after their boy has aged out of the program. The more of these leaders we recruit the stronger your unit gets.

How do you get these leaders? You ask them in a one on one conversation with them if they would be willing to commit to the pack for more than one year. Then after the first year, ask them how they liked it and if you get a positive feed back from him/her then ask him/her if they would consider volunteering for the unit after his/her boy has aged out of the program. They will think seriously about your offer and let you know in their own time, but do not push the subject again until it's time to recharter the unit. Then only ask them if they would be willing to stay on the charter with the unit.

Always ask for volunteers on a one on one conversation.

Good luck!

[BoatDaddy]

We seemed to have changed the subject of this thread from "K Cub Scout Program" to "Retention", we'll let the admin decide if we should start another thread for this topic.

1st Mate
---------
In the original design of the scouting program, I am sure you are right about the CO and COR. In today's reality most CO/CORs do not have alot of interaction with their Packs/Troops or know alot about what scouting is today and the struggles, let alone know the parents enough to be able to pick out a good leader from them.

Just as you state the struggling units "pass the buck" on why they are having problems, I feel your statement does the same thing. In the end, it is ALL BSA's responsibility one way or another.

I started a conversation on SCOUTS-L to talk about the retention program and how to work on it. Click here (http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0706&L=scouts-l&T=0&F=&S=&X=3F80CC7AA9D03D56AC&Y=mkabot%40soarol.com&P=103059) for that thread

The DE and FD can easily pick out the struggling Packs from their statistics. The should be working with these Packs to improve their program (with or without the CO/COR). Until they show up, who knows if it is a leader issue.

You are right, a strong leader makes things alot easier. You can still have a weak leader and a good program though. For me it is about the program being offered and is it keeping the boys interest.

The new training coming out for Cub Scout Leaders this fall sounds great. The same gap exists though, proper follow through and contact that local level.

Commissioner Tim
-----------------
Are there multiple elementary schools in the district? If so, should each Pack be associated with a single school? Would this remove the competition? Would this give each Pack enough "recruiting space" to flourish?

I ask becuase thats how the Packs in our town address this. 4 elementary schools, 4 Packs. The only exception is an additional Pack that is associated with a private school belonging to a church. There are a number of members of our Pack that belong to the church, but do not have their kids in the private school.

[BoatDaddy]

Getting back to the original topic...

I see the logic in adding a new K program to Cub Scouts. Get interest earlier, increase the numbers, should flow through the entire program.

I think this completely misses and avoids the real issue at hand - retention - how to turn a Pack that is not working into a Pack that is successful. This is where the debate should be - what are good ways to do this? CO, DE, District, etc....

[1st Mate]

I am sure you are right about the CO and COR. In today's reality most CO/CORs do not have alot of interaction with their Packs/Troops

Reality is what you make it. I have never been in a pack, troop, or ship that did not have a strong relationship with their charter organization. That is neither luck or coincidence, it was a program element that we MADE happen because we understood the importance of the relationship.

Scout units are owned by their charter organization. Good units have good leaders not by accident or coincidence, but because they made leader selection important and they took their responsibility to select good leaders seriously.

Units with good programs did not become that way by having a lot of scouts. They were able to recruit and retain a lot of scouts because they had good unit programs.

The MOST important job of a charter organization is to select good leaders.
The reality is that units with poor leaders will never serve as many families or have the results that units with good leaders will. Recruit adults of good character and we can teach them good scouting.

Most units recruit by announcing "We need somebdy to be a den leader" or "We need somebody to be a Cubmaster". You don't just want "somebody" to be responsible to help you shape your child's character...you want someone special.

More units need to take their responsiblity for leader selection seriously.

[CommissionerTim]

Units with good programs did not become that way by having a lot of scouts. They were able to recruit and retain a lot of scouts because they had good unit programs.
Would you not agree that a unit with a lot of scouts is directly related to great programming and leadership? However, I have visited units with great programming and leadership but small in the number of boys. I highly believe this is directly related to the number of units serving a school district.

Are there multiple elementary schools in the district? If so, should each Pack be associated with a single school? Would this remove the competition? Would this give each Pack enough "recruiting space" to flourish?

I ask becuase thats how the Packs in our town address this. 4 elementary schools, 4 Packs. The only exception is an additional Pack that is associated with a private school belonging to a church. There are a number of members of our Pack that belong to the church, but do not have their kids in the private school.I'm not sure if this has been looked at, but I will bring it up at the next district meeting. Thank you for your insight.

[BoatDaddy]

Reality is what you make it. I have never been in a pack, troop, or ship that did not have a strong relationship with their charter organization. That is neither luck or coincidence, it was a program element that we MADE happen because we understood the importance of the relationship.


Ok... lets go down this path. I'm not questioning your statements about the characteristics of a well tuned Pack/Troop. I am questioning how you get there becuase I feel that is the issue linked to addressing the retention problem..

Lets assume that the units that are not working well do not have good leaders, do not have a good program, are having retention issues, and the CO is not involved.

Can they address the problem themselves?

Do they need help from outside?

Where does the help come from?

What are the actions that need to be taken and by whom?

[CommissionerTim]

Lets assume that the units that are not working well do not have good leaders, do not have a good program, are having retention issues, and the CO is not involved.
A unit that is as bad off as you described probably has not been visited by a unit commissioner in quite some time.

Yes they probably could address the problem themselves, however it wouldn't be as smooth as if they had a unit commissioner working with them to "save the unit".

Every unit needs help from the outside and the outside is known as "Commissioner Service"... The district commissioner service should have a unit commissioner assigned to this unit you've described. If not, then contact your District Commissioner and let him/her know what is going on.

Lets assume that your DC has now assigned your unit a UC and he/she will be assessing the problems. The UC will be contacting the unit committee chair and discussing training of leadership, which in turn will help change up the programming to make it fun for the boys, which in turn will help recruit more boys because the current boys will tell their friends about how much fun they have during their meetings. The UC will also contact the COR and discuss the leadership and what changes may be needed. Only the COR can change the leadership. Keep in mind that none of what I just mentioned will happen overnight... it takes some time to rebuild a unit to be a success.

So ultimately the one leader that keeps the unit running smooth is the Unit Commissioner. Visit the Commissioners (http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=cm) page at www.scouting.org (http://www.scouting.org) . It will tell you more of what the commissioner does.

[1st Mate]

Lets assume that the units that are not working well do not have good leaders, do not have a good program, are having retention issues, and the CO is not involved.

Can they address the problem themselves?

Do they need help from outside?

Where does the help come from?

What are the actions that need to be taken and by whom?

BoatDaddy
Until a person or persons within the charter organization of unit want a change are are willing to particiapate in creating the change there is little chance that an outside influence will be effective.

Remember the unit belongs to the charter organization. The role of the council is to support through training and resources, not to run the unit.

Organizations change from the inside not the outside.

The most the council can do is send in a commissioner to warn the Charter orgnization of the "shadows of things to come" as Dickens would say. Then if they want to see things change, the council has resources to help guide and support those changes.

A doctyor cannot heal someone unwilling to admit they are sick and who refuses the medicine.

Commissioner Tim
One of the things that makes the United States of America so wonderful is its rich history of free enterprise and competition. The units with the best program will have all the scouts they can serve.

Units who complain that other units are getting all the scouts need to understand our culture better. I know scouts that drive 3 hours to belong to the unit that feel provides the best scouting. If I am throwing a a birthday party for my son I will throw the best party I can whether he has three friends coming or 30. Units need to put o the best program and lead using the best methods whether the serve 5 or 50 scouts. With that approach ANY unit can build and retain membership.

You do not have to be the largest unit to have a good program and to recruit and retain membership. A unit that is able to retain their members from the recruitment date until they age out, and recruits enough each year to match the number graduating is doing just fine.

It is not the councils mission to limit the number of units in a community. As a commissioner and a council member you have a responsibility and mission to spread the scouting program yo EVERY eligible youth and to help ANY eligible chartering organization use the scouting programs to serve the youth in their community.

In no level of scouting are we asked to limit the number of chartering organizations in a council.

[BoatDaddy]

1st Mate & Commissioner Tim,

In today's day and age I think you are putting too much on the Charter Organizations "heads".

I am fully aware of how scouting is setup and is supposed to work. The point I'm trying to get to is that it is not working (as indicated by the retention numbers). So what needs to change? I don't feel pointing back to the way its supposed to work is a good answer :)

BSA gives the Council a "franchise" for comparison purposes. The Council gives the CO a "franchise" - thats the whole point of recharting.

Just like the business world, the council should have the responsiblity of:

1. Determining if a new franchise is in the best interest of the Council. Does an existing franchise exist in the are of the new franchise? What will be the effect of a new franchise? Will it serve the youth to add this new franchise? You shouldn't just say ok because a new request comes in.

2. How is an existing franchise performing? Does it need some simple support to thrive? Is it to the point of complete failure? Should you close the franchise and re-direct the youth to another "franchise"?

This may sound extreme, but I'll state it to get my point across - If none of the Councils' professional staff (i.e. paid) are somewhere along the line responsible for the proper functioning of units and providing them direct support when needed, we should fire them all and save the money being spent :) This is how I interpret your statements about "its the CO's responsiblity not the Council"....

This is what I keep poking at... what should be done differently to help the struggling units. National has come forward with its actions (new interactive training, online training, and Cronk's Challenge). What actions are the Councils/Districts now going to take?

I do enjoy this discussion better than should we introduce a new level of scouting :)

[1st Mate]

The work you want to fire the professionals for not doing is not the professionals responsibilitiy.

The local professionals are in essense servant leaders, just as a good unit leader is to the unit they serve. They are there to do the daily administrative work needed to run a corporation while we live our professional lives.

They are responsible mainly for increasing the number of youth membership, recruiting adult volunteers for council/district support, and for raising the finances need to grow scouting in your community, and for promoting the use of the scouting programs to potential charter organizations. They keep records, maintain properties and assets of the council and distribute scouting resources. That is what the councils were designed to do. And when they do not do this they do lose their jobs.

But, if you want unit programs to improve or unit-charter organizations to improve then you need to choose better volunteer leaders at the unit level.
The BSA by its charter and bylaws have little to no authority within a unit unless the unit violates BSA polices. Leadership or lack of it is not in and of itsellf a policiy violation, it is a set of skills that the volunteer can choose to learn and apply, or choose not to.

Which choice they make is dependent on the character of the individual and cannot be mandated by the BSA.

Who is to say that a community that has two troops could not support a third? Is EVERY eligible youth in a scouting program? If three why not four? The misson is to see that every eligible youth has the opportunity to be in a quality scouting program.

In today's day and age I think you are putting too much on the Charter Organizations "heads"

I am not putting anything on the charter organizations heads. This responsibility is made clear to every unit and every unit leader by the BSA and supported by every related BSA resource and every related BSA training course. Whether or not it is supported in your community will depend on the volunteers selected to lead scouting in your community.

We need to stop looking to others to solve our problems. It is not the local professionals job to run the units we volunteered to serve.

I have come into situations in cub packs where people complain about the Cubmaster. Ask how they became the cubmaster and you are told "we asked for someone to volunteer and they did".

Would you stand on a street corner and ask for someone to volunteer to be your sons teacher for the next several years and just take whoever volunteered?

If charter organizations and their scouting committees do not take leadership selection seriously then they will get the program they deserve to have. Bad units will collapse and good units will sustain.

[1st Mate]

You mentioned Cronk's Challenge...(actually it is Cronks's Club)

This is a perfect example of the responsibilities of National Council, local council, District volunteers and unit volunteers and the importance of selecting the right people.

National develops programs and creates resources/ In this case National developed a goal and an action plan,along with a recognition, and made it available for councils to employ.

The council through its volunteers and professional staff do the administrative acts needed to make the resources available to the units. They develop the data base, track participation, communicate the program to the local units, make the resources available.

The unit however is responsible for implementation. It is the unit's job to select a Pack Trainer. It is the Pack Trainer's job to provide the introductory training and promote the attendendance at the training sessions. It is the responsiblitiy of the individuals selected and approved by the charter organization to attend, learn, and apply the training information.

National and counil develop, distribute and administrate, but unless the unit has selected their volunteers properly...nothing happens at the unit level.

When you think about it, the unit has always had the ability to get all of it's leaders trained. You didn't need Cronk's Club to do it. All you needed was a group of adult volunteers who wanted to do a good job. You didn't have to wait for the training course. You needed a group of leaders willing to read and follow the Cub Leaders Handbook. You didn't need a special neckerchief, you needed to select special people.

The BSA simply created a package to draw attention to the resources that already existed, you still need unit volunteers willing use it. No neckerchief will make a bad leader a better one unless they came with the character traits that are needed to be able to learn and change.

[WB Bear]

1st Mate is correct. The CO owns the units. Basically they own a franchise to use Scouting as a youth program for their organization. It is their responsibility to assure it runs properly. They do have the local council and district for resources.

[liscouter]

I agree with scouting mom, a kindergarten program could work but pre-K is just too early. I've worked as an aid in a kindergarten classroom (full day) and have seen how much progress is made. Children need to learn the routine and discipline of schooling before participating in any form of den meeting.

Another point which I don't think anyone has mentioned... parents of Kindergarteners are more eager to be involved with their kids. Their babies are growing and becoming independant for the first time. By 1st grade parents are more used to this seperation. Your school PTA recruits volunteers from the Kindergarten crowd, many of whom stay active throughout elementary school.

[1st Mate]

Why couldn't the den meeting structure help prepare kids for kindergarden?

As far as the early recruitment of parents, I think that is precisely what the BSA is trying to do as one of the goals of an early development program.

[liscouter]

We are volunteers! We are not trained in early childhood education. Leave that to the the professionals.

[1st Mate]

I don't know what training you have taken through the BSA to date, but it is based on presenting a program and a structure that is understandable and appropriate to youth at various ages and stages of development, so yes in many ways we are trained educators. One does not have to be paid to be an effective educator, nor does being paid guarantee ability.

The methods we use and are not unlike those used by the teaching profession. In fact the method of teaching/learning that has been used by the BSA is nearly identical to the process taught in universities to thousands of potential teachers each year.

There is no reason why the structure of Cub Scouting and the lessons of courtesy, cooperation, and respect for others, that is taught in Cub Scouting would not help to prepare pre-schoolers for kindergarden.

The bottom line is 'is there a user base?'

Think of it as any consumer service. If you developed a service product would you be concerned about how many people do want it or how many people do not? It is my understanduing that the BSA is currently field testing a program in sample councils to see if the program fulfills needs for the user and if enough membership can be sustained to make the program viable.

Whether it goes to the next phase or not should be based on the feedback from those actually experiencing the program should it not? And we should not let the fact that we are volunteers distract from the programs abilities to develop and educate young people at a wide variety of ages and stages of growth.

[miscoutmom]

In my time at a Webelo leader... We all had our separate dens running meetings in the same area.... with all the pre-schoolers running wild or joining in a project with another den with their mom running it and brother in that den. Why not have an organized meeting for the peanuts and give them something constructive to do while their brother was in his meeting. Even if its just 1hr craft time/co-ed. Nowadays we have to get to these kids earlier to help make them better kids and teach good values. Many of them are learning their values from playing X-Box and watching Cartoon Network.
Maybe during the meeting... a craft and discussion theme. You chat and create at the same time. As a former day care <preschool> worker, I could imagine coming in and talking about fire safety this week... and finger painting with red, orange and blue <for the water> and making pictures of firefighters putting out the fire. Do we play with matches kids? <NOOOOO>
What do you do when.... Something like that. Sounds like fun to me. Less stressfull than putting together a Webelo meeting <to me anyways>...
Then next week can be another subject and building with waffle blocks.
They could also tag along on go see its with the Tigers, so they can see the places you've been discussing.

Jenny
Troop 744 :cool:

[Den5Pack457]

Many valid points, pro and con, for the initial post of "A new level of Cub Scouting..." While reading all of the replies, I came up with a twist.

Instead of looking for a new audience... let's turn our attention towards our "Little Scout Buddies." Focus on the siblings of the boys and give a little more formalization other than the optional T-Shirt and Cap.

They already attend our meetings and activities. Some Packs and Troops go as far as setting up activities to keep them occupied.

Also, allowing them to enroll as Little Scout Buddies would establish them in the system for tracking purposes, and also help offset liability.

By all means, allow children who are not siblings but have a keen interest join, too. But, I'm sure the majority of the children who would join would either be siblings of scouts or the occasional pre-schooler/kindergartener who is motivated to join.

Burn out rate would be relative to the focus the rest of the family has on scouts. If Big Brother transitions from Weblos to Boy Scouts, it's highly likely little brother would, too. And, of course the retention successes or problems your unit may be facing.

Seeing such varying replies pro and con, it's evident that not all packs are the same. Some would embrace this, others would discourage it.

I can tell you this, my Son is now a Tiger Cub, and we joined the very earliest he could (last spring, effective 1 Jun for progression). The first booth he approached when we went to the "meet the teachers" night last year was the Cub Scout booth. And, I had at least five kids/parents of kids entering kindergarten approach the booth the 30 minutes I worked it, last week.

My personal experiences are for a small few, all we're doing is baby sitting. Yes, there's always a couple in the group that are there only because their parents dropped them off. That's from age 6 to 18! Can we capture their attention and retain them? Their parents may hope, but that's up to the willingness of the scout.

Even with Tiger Cubs, most of the boys are still learning how to read. Their attention spans are very short. But, working with them is just as worthwhile as working with Wolf, Bear, Weblos or Boy Scouts. They're there for many reasons, but life experience is paramount. It's a chore to keep them occupied, but it's possible and the benefits are plausible.

Focusing on an untapped resource such as our little scout buddies may be better than starting a new program from scratch, with more tangible benefits.

[Mettyl Fox]

I agree with most of the comments both for and against, but IMHO, a boy just starting Kidney-garden is not ready for scouting. Do we really need to push our children further along? School and sports are doing that enough.

Compare your schedule now with your child's activities to what your schedule used to be like when you were his age.

Yours In Scouting,
Steve

[Den5Pack457]

What's the latest on this topic?

[WB Bear]

The Scouting program is structured to be age characteristic appropriate with particular emphasis on the individual Scout. It is really not fair to him to have others involved. Den meetings should be geared to that particular age group. It is really not fair to a Den Leaders to have to oversee other boys in Dens. Parents should find other ways to occupy those children who won’t or cannot join Scouting.

Pack meetings are a time when family members can be present as observers of the Cubs achievements and activities. Some Packs might occasional have a family campout or other family activities, but again the basis of the program is the individual Cub.

[Westergaard]

I think that I like the idea of having the Lion's rank in cub scouting reinstituted.
Our Pack has always had younger siblings participate in certain activities and what better way to help them associate with scouts of different ages and get them use to a group environment.

[Westergaard]

I feel that, while retention is a problem, the BSA program has given more than enough tools to help units provide a quality program. Retention of scouts falls upon the unit leaders' shoulders to keep the scouts engaged.
We have more opportunities, on all levels of scouting, for awards, advancement, and leadership training.
The BSA can provide thousands and thousands of printed documents to help with improving retention and the BSA can revamp the awards program but it still falls upon the unit leaders to act on the material presented and keep the scouts interested in the program.
A loss in membership of scouts is not necessarily the fault of the BSA program but the failure of unit leaders to present the program to the scouts in an interesting way.
In the 9 years of being an active scout leader, I have only lost one cub scout because of other outside influences. The BSA gave me the tools to use for a better program and it was up to me to decide whether or not to use those tools.

[WB Bear]

I agree it’s the onus of the membership and retention is with the unit leaders. If they build it they will come and will also stay.

[Sephrina]

After being an honorary Girl Scout with his sister, I have to say my son waited very impatiently to be old enough to start Cub Scouts. He would have loved being able to start in kindergarten last year. (he probably would have loved starting in preschool...but that's going a bit far)

[Den5Pack457]

What's the latest on this? Anyone know if this topic is still being tabled by BSA? I constantly get questions from scouts/parents with younger siblings and parents that see us at activities who have Kindergarteners.

I've been saying they're thinking of opening it up to K's, but don't know if that's still valid.

[Nuts4Scouts]

As far as I have heard, it is still in the early stages of testing.

[Den5Pack457]

Thanks for the update. I'll be interested to see how it unfolds. Most of the parents who approached are booth at the school's open house this Monday were for Kindergarteners.

[DadScout297]

It's sort of a touchy subject. We have a boy in kindergarten who has sat in on a couple of the Tiger Cub den meetings while his older brother was in the Wolf den. He quickly learned the Promise, Motto, Salute, Handshake, and Law of the Pack. The Cubmaster said, "well, if he can learn all that at 5, he's good enough for me." The District Commissioner said "Sign him up." He'll probably have to do two years as a Tiger Cub, but they said they weren't about to turn away a boy who was sincere, eager, and able to do the program.

I'm not saying we throw it open to all kindergartners. Heck, I've got some Wolves who could probably stand another year in the Tiger Cubs. There are always going to be some kids who are more advanced for their age, and some less so. Perhaps being a little flexible on entry age for Tiger Cubs is the solution after all, with the proviso that the child has to be developmentally able to complete his Bobcat badge in order to remain.

[Nuts4Scouts]

Unless the boy was 7 years old, he is NOT a registered member of BSA, no matter what your CM and DC says. ScoutNet will simply not accept the registration.

Even if your council registered the kindergarten boy as a member of Learning for Life, LFL is not BSA, and the boy would still not be a registered Tiger Cub Scout.

Personally, I feel this is very unfair to this boy. Tigers is NOT a 2 year program. By next year he will be bored and unwilling to repeat the same activities. What then? Push a 1st grader into a 2nd grade program? Just because a boy knows how to do the Scout Salute and can repeat the Cub Scout Promise, does NOT mean he is ready for activities that have been created for boys a year older than him.

[DadScout297]

Unless the boy was 7 years old, he is NOT a registered member of BSA, no matter what your CM and DC says. ScoutNet will simply not accept the registration.

Even if your council registered the kindergarten boy as a member of Learning for Life, LFL is not BSA, and the boy would still not be a registered Tiger Cub Scout.

Personally, I feel this is very unfair to this boy. Tigers is NOT a 2 year program. By next year he will be bored and unwilling to repeat the same activities. What then? Push a 1st grader into a 2nd grade program? Just because a boy knows how to do the Scout Salute and can repeat the Cub Scout Promise, does NOT mean he is ready for activities that have been created for boys a year older than him.
Nuts, I agree that it's outside of BSA regulations, no question about that. I also realize that the age limits don't accurately reflect the developmental level of every child, but a line does have to be drawn somewhere. The issue as I see it is the question of how "hard" that line has to be. The boy is interested in Scouting NOW, and he's applying himself very diligently to the program. There's no crystal ball to show if he'll be bored in a year with it, or if he was forced to wait a year if his interest would still remain. Is it less than ideal? Probably. But if a boy wants to put on a blue shirt and make hand puppets while learning about teamwork, citizenship, and moral values, I'd rather err on the side of the child's happiness than the rulebook's.

At any rate, it may be a moot point. Our Commissioners met last night, and the issue was raised about younger boys having a role in Scouting, although I do not yet know the outcome. Perhaps we can get in on the Pilot for the Lion program somehow and make both the kids AND the rules happy. :)

[WB Bear]

The Scouting program is structured to be age characteristic appropriate with particular emphasis on the individual Scout. It is really not fair to him to have others involved. Den meetings should be geared to that particular age group. It is really not fair to a Den Leaders to have to oversee other boys in Dens. Parents should find other ways to occupy those children who won’t or cannot join Scouting.

Pack meetings are a time when family members can be present as observers of the Cubs achievements and activities. Some Packs might occasional have a family campout or other family activities, but again the basis of the program is the individual Cub.

The rules had been established for a reason and if fact rules are a part of life. This program is about helping to teach life skills. He will have something to look forward to.

This is what BSA has to say about joining age at this time.

http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/faqs/joining.aspx#aa

[AmandaRSW]

The rules had been established for a reason and if fact rules are a part of life. This program is about helping to teach life skills. He will have something to look forward to.

This is what BSA has to say about joining age at this time.

http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/faqs/joining.aspx#aa


How old (or young) can a boy be to join Cub Scouting?

Cub Scouting is for boys in the first through fifth grades, or 7 to 10 years of age. Boys who are older than 10, or who have completed the fifth grade, can no longer join Cub Scouting, but they may be eligible to join the Boy Scouting or Venturing program.

I find it interesting that they specifically said that a boy over the age of 10 (or completed the fifth grade) can no longer join cub scouting, but they never mentioned if a younger boy can absolutely NOT join cub scouting.

I agree with DadScout, if the kid is having fun in the den meetings, is learning, is excited, and is actually gaining something from the program, there is absolutely no reason NOT to let him continue to do so. I believe that something like this should be the CM or the DCs decision, and if they give it the go-ahead, then there is nothing wrong with it.

One way you can let him continue the program is you make sure he does his best to complete the entire Tiger book (all achievements and electives) before moving him into the Wolf den. Then while in the Wolves he can complete that entire book as well before moving into the Bears, where by this time he should be caught up with his age group. If not - then complete the whole Bear book before going into WEBELOS.

:)

[1st Mate]

there is absolutely no reason NOT to let him continue to do so. I believe that something like this should be the CM or the DCs decision, and if they give it the go-ahead, then there is nothing wrong with it.
Well Amands

Well Amanda let's hope that the Den leader is as comfortable with covering the scouts medical expences from his or her homeowners liability policy as you are.

Because that ineligible scouts attending those meetings has no BSA accident insurance and the leader has risks their BSA liability [protection since the boy is not eligible to be a member. Should they get injured at a Den meeting it is likely that the loss will make its way onto the personal insurance coverage of the den leader.

While you see " no reason" to not continue to allow this underage youth to participate as a scout I can see a BIG reason.

[WB Bear]

Amanda, I believe you misread the link on the BSA site. It states:

“Cub Scouting is for boys in the first through fifth grades, or 7 to 10 years of age. Boys who are older than 10, or who have completed the fifth grade, can no longer join Cub Scouting, but they may be eligible to join the Boy Scouting or Venturing program.”

A boy may join Cubs when he enters 1st grade or if he is 7 years old. A boy who is “older than 10” (which means 11 years old or older) can not join Cub Scouts.

Scouting is a proven program of almost 100 years now. Cub Scouting has been around for over 75 years. The program has been well thought out and there has been copious amount of extensive research by professionals. These rules, as far as joining requirements, are not a decision a CM or a DC have the power to change.

[DadScout297]

Because that ineligible scouts attending those meetings has no BSA accident insurance and the leader has risks their BSA liability protection since the boy is not eligible to be a member. Should they get injured at a Den meeting it is likely that the loss will make its way onto the personal insurance coverage of the den leader.
Yeah, good point. Guess it's back to waiting on Council to see if they can get in on the pilot.

[ccjj]

Okay, I have a 5th grader that wants to join Cub Scouts. He just turned 11 last month. Do I tell him he can't join Cub Scouts, but must join Boy Scouts? The leader just handed me his application at work today, and I am just now looking at it.

ccjj

[DadScout297]

Okay, I have a 5th grader that wants to join Cub Scouts. He just turned 11 last month. Do I tell him he can't join Cub Scouts, but must join Boy Scouts? The leader just handed me his application at work today, and I am just now looking at it.

ccjj
Eleven and up is for Boy Scouts. He doesn't meet either criterion for being a Cub Scout. The program is designed to be age- and grade-appropriate, so he should be a perfect fit for a beginning Boy Scout. Let him visit the different Troops in the area and pick the one he feels fits his vision of Scouting, if he likes. He doesn't really need to be a Cub first.

Yours in Scouting,
DadScout

[Nuts4Scouts]

Yes, he CAN be registered as a Webelos Cub Scout.

From the BSA Youth Application, the joining requirements for a Webelos Scout are as follows -

Webelos Scout—Must have completed third grade but not completed fifth grade, or be age 10 but not yet 111⁄2.

Seems to me he meets the criteria for BOTH age AND grade. He has not yet completed 5th grade and he is not yet 11.5 years old.

Sign him up as a Webelos. Even if he does not complete his AOL, he will still be eligible to cross to a Troop with his den when the time comes.

[DadScout297]

Well, my mistake, then. The decision is really whether or not the boy will gain that much benefit by being placed in a program in which he can only spend six months (Webelos Scout) or if he wouldn't be better off by going ahead and entering Boy Scouts. Talk to the boy and his parents and reach an informed consensus to put him wherever he'll be happiest.

Regards,
DadScout

[MB Counselor Ed]

Adding a younger age to Cubs will bolster the number but by the time these boys get to Boy Scout age, burn out will set in for the boy & the parents. If you want to retain kids, run a great program!