Not sure about my pack....

[KevGuy]

I have been involved with my pack since last May and took on the job of Tiger Cub Leader. We don't do popcorn sales to raise money, instead they sell water and snacks at flag football games as a funraiser which is kinda on going. They have also talked about candy bars from somewhere. Most of the den leaders are not fully trained despite having been in the pack for a couple of years. At our first comittee meeting last week I raised the issue of what was the the pack budget and was told we don't have one. I then asked about how much money we have in the pack account and was told by the comittee chairman he didn't know and that the treasurer had that info. She was not there either. All the members of the comittee at this meeting were den leaders, no other official comittee members that I saw. I'm not sure how you can run things without a budget. I even emailed them a sample pack budget spreadsheet after the meeting and have got nothing but silence since not even an acknowledgement or a thanks.

I work with computers for a living and our pack web site is a disgrace in my opinion. Basically a little league e-teamz site that is never updated and has only info from last year. Most of the people involved last year left or didn't come back. So I offered to redo the web site and take that over to a better host designed for packs for about the same money and also offered to put up the money for the new web site and have the pack reimburse me later when it can or just give it as a donation to the pack from my family for the first year cost. I have received nothing but silence since that meeting regarding it. It seems that there are a few of the den leaders and the CC and CM team that have a little click and perhaps don't like the fact that I'm not afraid to speak up and want to get involved to make things better. I'm not sure. But I thought that the pack money was supposed to be transparent to the comittee and everything regarding it was supposed to be out in the open. There are two tiger dens for a total of 8 kids. I was given my own son and two others and the other person given 5. I would have thought to split the group evenly would be best myself. Since then one kid has some bad illness and has stopped coming, so it is down to just two kids.

It seems that the people involved don't want to be bothered with formalities and want to everything as easy as possible for them (the adults). The asst. cubmaster who I have seen twice at pack meetings doesn't wear a uniform either. Maybe I'm too gung ho for people's taste, but things were a lot different when I was a kid involved with it and it seemed very structured. There seems to be very little or none at all with my pack. I am debating on whether to just look for another pack for myself and my son or try and see if my parish (long shot) would start a new one as there is none currently sponsored by my faith. If that doesn't work perhaps we just say to heck with it altogether and just focus on sports for my kids. I am just disapointed by what I see so far. Should I stick it out despite being an outsider to the "click" within the pack that seems to run things the way they see fit?

Regardless of anything else I provide the tiger cub program to my son and the other tiger cub for my den and so far I believe we have had a tremendous time the last 3-4 weeks. Made a family scrapbook, did a go see it and rode a train and saw a train station, made railroad crossing neckerchief slides, learned two tiger cub songs. I basically spend money out of my own pocket at this point to make sure my den has the best and we lack nothing. Is that normal? I charged $3 a month for den dues and was given a look by some other den leaders in the "click" at the comittee meeting and comments about isn't that a lot. But it won't even cover the cost of the wooden train, activity book, and monthly theme patch for the "All Aboard" theme this month if you bought the items individually which I did from the monthly den in a box kit.

[Nuts4Scouts]

Hi there KevGuy!

Boy, it sounds like you have a stuck in the "we always do it this way" Pack. You just need to keep plugging away. When you bring up an idea at Committee meeting, press for an answer then, or in a specific time frame. Keep after them, it sounds like communication could be a LOT better.

Your Tiger Den situation is a bit crazy to me. Do you know the other Tiger Leader? Talk to him/her about joining together into one den. It is REALLY hard to get things going good with only 2 boys. And 7 boys (even 8) is an ideal size for a den.

With 7/8 boys you can utilize your Tiger Shared Leadership to the fullest. You have plenty of boys for games and activities. And there is absolutely no reason to be paying 2X for things. Talk the other leader into it, you do not need the Committee's permission to do what is right for your boys.

BTW - While Den Meeting in a Box is a great idea, I feel it is a bit pricey and unnecessary for the Tigers. Most of their stuff is already laid out in their handbooks and extra stuff can be done for a LOT less than what you pay for the Den Meeting in a Box.

Look online for ideas. Use recycled items. Have the Tiger Team who is responsible for planning and running the meeting pay for meeting supplies. (will work much better with all 7 Teams together!)

Take a deep breath and see how it goes. Things might come together as the year goes along and you get to know the folks in the Pack better.

[KevGuy]

Thanks for the response. I agree that the meetings in a box are very expensive. But I have had little to no support regarding my den other than being given a den meeting helps magazine which I have used to help me make the railroad neckerchief slides. Other than that I have received no help at all or suggestions on how to do things with my den. The other tiger den leader from what I have seen knows nothing and I don't believe has even read the cub scouts leaders book or even has one. The other tiger den leader also has an assistant den leader which I thought was not needed because the parents are supposed to participate. Again the "click" thing seems to be apparent which is why I'm pretty sure the dens were set up like this. It seems no one wants to spend money for anything in the pack from what I gather, everything is done on the cheap. But yet I can't get a straight answer about the pack budget or what we have in terms of money to work with. I had the office manager at my job donate some old 3 ring binders for our family scrapbooks, and she even gave me a new 3 hole punch to keep for the future. I spent $2 on a piece of 1/2" pvc pipe and maybe another $2 on some wood circles from a craft store for the neckerchief slides. So I have been trying to be resourceful. I got the wooden train kits paid for out of my pocket so the kids would have a really nice project and the monthly theme patches to give them a reward. Yea, I'll probably hold out and see how it goes, I'd like to get through at least the first year. I guess I was really just venting and aksing if this is how things are done else where. The CC said he wanted me to go with him Thursday to a roundup event at the police station, and I said I would about two weeks ago. Then he just sent me an email saying he has a volunteer and I won't be needed now at the round up. But yet my den is the one that needs to recruit and I would think that the den leader should be there for tigers. Again I don't get it, why would you ask me to come and then at the last minute tell me I'm not needed. I think I'm just gonna have to focus on my immediate den, do what I think needs to be done, say what I think needs to be said at meetings etc. and see what happens. I'm seriously gonna speak with the pastor of my parish though to see why we don't sponsor a pack at all.

[1st Mate]

Hi Kevguy

If I could offer some suggestions. At this point in time as a Den leader my suggestion would be don't sweat the stuff that goes on outside the den you serve. In all likelyhodd you will never find yourself in a Scout unit where you agree with everything that is going on, so the best you can do is the best you can do.

If you havent already go take the BSa basic training, New Leader Essentials and Tiger Den Leader Specific Training.

Get a copy of of Program Helps, Cub Scout Leader Handbook, and the How to Book. With these three resources you will have everything you need to deliver an outstanding program.

I would skip the monthly theme patch and use the bead recognition program instead. The How To book will show you how to do great crafts on a shoestring (actually with a shoestring too.)

Look at den meetings like a 60 minute birthday party. Keep it simple and fun but with a solid agenda. Every Den meeting has 7 parts and you should use all 7.

There is good reason to have an assitand Den Leader even in tigers. Next year they will be wolves and two adults will need to be ready to become the two adults responsible for den for the next three and half years. It makes good sense to get that person lined up as soon as possible.

Hope this helps

[cubbobwhite]

There is good reason to have an assitand Den Leader even in tigers. Next year they will be wolves and two adults will need to be ready to become the two adults responsible for den for the next three and half years. It makes good sense to get that person lined up as soon as possible.

Hope this helps
I would prefer to see a Tiger Cub Den using shared leadership their program calls for.

[1st Mate]

One does not exclude the other.

[cubbobwhite]

One does not exclude the other.
Except there is no registered postion called Assistant Tiger Cub Den Leader.

[1st Mate]

Consider that in the Tiger program the first year goes by very quickly, You usually have from September to May to organize and develop the Den not just to last to May but for the next three an half years.

The sooner you can identify who those two Den leaders will be the better chance of the Dens success. I am not suggesting the first week or even month, But after 90 to 120 days, the Den leader should have a good idea of which parent or parents are best suited for Den leadership and could be actively incorporating and training that other person(s). While there might not be a specific patch in Tigers for an assistant den leader, what would be the harm to the Den or the Pack if that talent were identified and incorporated into leadership?

Then by the end of the last half of their first year the den leadership is established, trained, and has about 4 months of experience working together before becoming the Wolf Den Leaders. The purpose of Tigers is not just to get the boys started in scouting as soon as possible but also to to begin getting the parents involved in scouting as soon as possible, so that after the introductory year of Tigers the Wolf Dens are organized, trained, and,ready to go.

What would be the possibel drawbacks of the Tiger Den leader selecting an assistant other than no patch exists for the position until they becone a Wolf Den?

[KevGuy]

Yea, I see where your coming from 1st mate, but seeing as my den is rather small, no one seems to be recruiting, I feel I need to also focus on things outside of my den. I didn't get involved with this just to say I am. If I do something I am usually "all in" and matters outside of my den will and do effect me. The way I see it is that if we stay in this pack, we will be responsible for more and more each year and eventually pack leadership will fall onto someone, most likely me as I don't see anyone else at this point who seems to care. I am the only den leader that even goes to district roundtable meetings. I have all the stuff you mentioned such as program helps etc, why do you think we are doing the projects listed in it for September? I gave my kids the monthly theme patches as a bonus in addition to the tiger recognition beads. I've talked to a lot of people about this and I am going to continue to ask questions and not be shy. I mean how can a pack run when the people running it have no idea about a pack budget, and any question about the money are answered with a "ummm, we don't know"? I'm sorry but that just doesn't seem right to me. Worst case is I'll go to a different pack or district if things continue on the path it seems to have been on the last couple years from what people have told me that are no longer involved. Best case is I'll continue to ask questions, people will be honest, and we can all start making the program go in the direction I believe that BSA has intended for all packs. Not the current click mantra with secrecy some would have you believe is stupidity. Who knows maybe my church will be willing to charter a new pack, I've yet to have those discussions but will be in the coming weeks.

[Nuts4Scouts]

It sounds like you really dislike your Pack's leadership. Rather than let that fester and affect the boys, moving to a different Pack might be your best option.

[1st Mate]

While I understand your frustration you need to understand the structure of a scout unit. It is different than most organizations you might be familiar with. You have been approved as a Den Leader. That approval came from the Committee Chair and either the Charter Organization Representative or the Institutional Head.

The Institutional head signs the agreement to charter a unit with the BSA, The Insttutional head and only the institutional head selets the Charter Rep. The Charter Rep and the Institutional Head select and approve the Committee Chair.

The the Committee Chair and either the Charter Organization Representative or the Institutional Head approve all other adults. You cannot just say that you do not want to be the Den and want to do something else or take control of another persons responsibilities wno matter how badly you feel they do them.

Nor can a Pack survive under the energy of a single person forever. It's a team activitity, and the best way for you to make change is through cheerful service and the example you set for others, by following the progam and doing your specifc job well.

Let others see your success by using the program and its resurces and you will have them asking you for advice. Then you can help mentor them in their jobs so that they can have the fun and success that the Den you lead will be having.

[lovemypack]

Truthfully I do not see why there are two tiger dens, or maybe we just do things wrong but we have always had one dens per age group. This year we have 55 boys registered in our pack we have a Tiger den with 13 boys, which are in one den. We actually started our year with no wolf leader and one bear leader and also one webelos leader. At our first meeting we regristered another leader for each pack. We only need one more leader for wolves. We actually do not have any Asst. Leader in our pack, we train every leader we have as a full leader no one wears an Asst. leaders badge. When I started with this pack a year ago we had no budget at all. It was very hard for me to start a budget, Our CC was very cautious about letting me have rain on this, but I proved that I knew what I was doing and have turned this pack around. To the point that our CC is stepping down and I am being trained for this poistion. I know what it is like to butt heads with people of the pack but with persists they will see that you have what it takes to get this pack where it needs to be.

Our pack had died 5 years ago and with 2 people this pack stayed alive, not the correct way but alive. And now we are still sturgling but things are getting better. We are now starting to host things on a distict level and it is great.

Your committee may have just gotten tried and has given up the fight, but people like you and me can turn things around just don't take NO as an answer. Go to a high level if need to be to get the pack going in the right diretion, I have become very close to our DE disspike the packs approval and now have turned the pack around for the best.

I wish you best of luck.

[cubbobwhite]

Consider that in the Tiger program the first year goes by very quickly, You usually have from September to May to organize and develop the Den not just to last to May but for the next three an half years.

The sooner you can identify who those two Den leaders will be the better chance of the Dens success. I am not suggesting the first week or even month, But after 90 to 120 days, the Den leader should have a good idea of which parent or parents are best suited for Den leadership and could be actively incorporating and training that other person(s). While there might not be a specific patch in Tigers for an assistant den leader, what would be the harm to the Den or the Pack if that talent were identified and incorporated into leadership?

Then by the end of the last half of their first year the den leadership is established, trained, and has about 4 months of experience working together before becoming the Wolf Den Leaders. The purpose of Tigers is not just to get the boys started in scouting as soon as possible but also to to begin getting the parents involved in scouting as soon as possible, so that after the introductory year of Tigers the Wolf Dens are organized, trained, and,ready to go.

What would be the possibel drawbacks of the Tiger Den leader selecting an assistant other than no patch exists for the position until they becone a Wolf Den?

That is the whole point of shared leadership.

[cubbobwhite]

Truthfully I do not see why there are two tiger dens, or maybe we just do things wrong but we have always had one dens per age group. This year we have 55 boys registered in our pack we have a Tiger den with 13 boys, which are in one den. We actually started our year with no wolf leader and one bear leader and also one webelos leader. At our first meeting we regristered another leader for each pack. We only need one more leader for wolves. We actually do not have any Asst. Leader in our pack, we train every leader we have as a full leader no one wears an Asst. leaders badge. When I started with this pack a year ago we had no budget at all. It was very hard for me to start a budget, Our CC was very cautious about letting me have rain on this, but I proved that I knew what I was doing and have turned this pack around. To the point that our CC is stepping down and I am being trained for this poistion. I know what it is like to butt heads with people of the pack but with persists they will see that you have what it takes to get this pack where it needs to be.

Our pack had died 5 years ago and with 2 people this pack stayed alive, not the correct way but alive. And now we are still sturgling but things are getting better. We are now starting to host things on a distict level and it is great.

Your committee may have just gotten tried and has given up the fight, but people like you and me can turn things around just don't take NO as an answer. Go to a high level if need to be to get the pack going in the right diretion, I have become very close to our DE disspike the packs approval and now have turned the pack around for the best.

I wish you best of luck.

The den method is the lead in to the patrol method used in Boy Scouting. And since we are "preparing them to become Boy Scouts" it is important to keep the den sizes similar to the sizes of patrols so the boys learn to work together and each have opportunities to lead.

[1st Mate]

There is a bigger reason than matching the size of the patrol. The den and the patrols are designed to be 6 to 8 boys because that is the optimal social group size for boys at that age and stage of development.

Small enough for each scout to a big fish in a small pond, big enough to a size that works well with team interaction and is small enough for most activity situations. In Boy Scouts it is a group small enough to be lead by a youth just learning and practicing small group leadership skills. and large enough for inter-patrol activities and competitions.

13 Tiger Cubs with 13 adult partners? I have an average size home and I have no room where I could have a good den meeting for 26 people.

Plus with the short agenda time of a den meeting it would be difficult the den leader to give individual attention to more than 6 or 8 boys in a meeting.

The recommended Den size allows the scout the greatest growth opportunity by allowing each scout to get the most attention, the most social skills, the most individual recognition and the most support than they would get in a large group situation.

As a Cub master we never alowed a Den to get larger than 8 scouts and we always had between 90 and 100 cub scouts.

There is wisdom to the Methods of the scouting programs. The Den Method works best when you follow the structure of the den as designed by the BSA's decades of research and program develop.

[lovemypack]

We have found that it works better with having one den, due to the fact that are pack is over 85% military and we don't keep all of our boys though out the year. We usally loss half of are boys before the end of the year. This is because of the military not because of bad leadership. We use to have two dens with each age group but then we end up having extra leaders with no boys so they stop coming. We have just found that with our situation it is better for us this way. all of our packs in our distict tend to do the same. We are all centered between 4 military bases. If have you have suggestions please advise. :o

[WB Bear]

What happens when the boys move up to Wolf? Maintaining a level of 6-8 boys in a den in important, they need the individual attention. I take it if you lose ½ the boys each year you also lose leaders. So what happens when your existing leaders are part of the half that are transferred out and you have no leaders? My recommendation is to break the Tigers into dens, and get the adult leadership in place for the dens.