Scouting not what we thought it would be

[CarolinaRen]

Hi there. I'm the mom of two new scouts: one a tiger cub and the other a wolf cub. We joined after a recruitment event at school, and rather quickly became highly disappointed in "scouting." We are, however, learning, that the problem may be our pack rather than scouting itself.

No one seems to know anything. Communications to the parents is sorely lacking and irregular at best. At one committee meeting, someone said, "I'll stand there and try to catch everyone as they leave." My recommendation and effort to volunteer to create communications for the parents was turned down. "We're always unorganized in the beginning." "We have a bulletin board." When the "bulletin board" showed up next week, I asked for a copy of what was on it. "No, we don't have any copies." So needless to say I didn't read everything on there. First of all I didn't have the time. Second, I didn't have paper and pencil to copy things down.

During this same meeting, which was my first, no one acknowledged or introduced me when I arrived; yet they sure seemed hungry for my participation when I asked about joining the committee. While I was in the midst of explaining my idea and reasons for the need for communications, latercomers arrived and promptly interrupted me...several times. I finally stopped trying to complete what I was saying. Obviously it was not important to the committee (which I was going to join).

My husband paid and turned in papers for a daytime event--when he got there he learned that NO ONE in our pack had been registered.

We rushed to make it to a wolf outing on time; the leader was not even there. We waited 1/2 hour and then began the activity ourselves. When we ran into her nearly 2 hours later, she didn't even bother to apologize or explain.

The meetings are often overrun and interrupted by unruly, loud undisciplined children. "We believe boys will be boys--none of that ADHD stuff."

During the committee meeting I attended (my first and only one--at this pack, anyway), two of the leaders were complaining about how the boys run around before the meeting, and how they need to stop climbing on the steps. They decided to use tape to block off the steps before the next meeting started, and to tell the boys to go right into their rooms to wait for the meetings to begin. When we got there, 15 minutes early, the leader was standing outside at his car talking on the phone. The doors to the building were locked, and another leader was sitting on the "off limit" steps.

We were told to sell popcorn, and read all about it online (after finding the council's site ourselves). We were excited because we found we could sell online since all of our family lives out of state. So my husband asked for numbers for our sons and was told, "They can't sell it online." So then I asked, since I had read all about it already and KNEW we could sell online. I was told that some boys weren't credited right last year, and that the unit never got compensated for the sales. So...the obvious question...which I did not dare ask....is, SO WHY are the Scouts still using this organization if this is true? Why is this issue still outstanding? Why can't you get us the numbers anyway and let us take the chance on whether we get credited or not...because you're not getting ANY sales from us any other way!

This pack is a joke. The Scouts as a whole should be appalled that their name is being denigraded in this way.

It is our belief that Scouting will help us instill into our children discipline, loyalty and respect. But that is never going to happen at this pack. Ever.

Needless to say, we decided to call another pack we happened to see while visiting a local church. They invited us to come check out the meetings, but the guy on the phone--I assume a leader--didn't really seem to know anything that was going on in the pack. We asked about activities we knew were going on in our pack--asked if they were participating--and he really didn't know what was going on.

This is very discouraging. Both my husband and I are willing and able to participate to help make this experience a great one for our boys, but it doesn't look possible. We are not willing to "bully" our way in to do so.

I would also like to see more activity on this Web site. Another communications issue, perhaps?

Thank you for listening. This is the first we've been able to vent! Doesn't solve the problems, but sure feels good! :)

[tomcat]

Here is my two cents worth.
Call your local Council office. Get your district executives name and number and call them and ask about units in your area. And find one that fits you.
All units are different.
I know my unit is always looking for people but every once in a while we over look the indiviuals needs.

[scouter283]

It's disappointing to hear that a unit is not measuring up to the promise of scouting. I agree with tomcat. Contact your district executive or distict commissioner. They should be willing to attend a meeting of your Pack and help it become a little more organized. You sound like a great potential volunteer and the unit shouldwelcome you with open arms.

Remember that scouting is a volunteer organization. It sounds like your Pack is very active and that it is going through fall organization pains. Often people have been in a unit for a long time and they are doing things like they always have been done. Not a good excuse but it serves as the best mode of operation for many units. Your unit commissioner is your best ally in making changes that benefit the unit and the boys.

Please don;t leave scouting - if this unit doesn;t organize soon then the commissioner can help you find one that fits your familiy's personality.

Happy Scouting!

[Nuts4Scouts]

Welcome & I too am sorry to hear your start in Scouting has gone so badly.

There can be any number of reasons your current Pack is disorganized. One might be that the main leaders, Cubmaster (CM) & Committee Chair (CC) are new. Part of the problem might be the way the Pack is set up. It sounds like all dens meet at the same time & place. Of course, taking money & then not following thru with registration is NOT a good sign. I hope they refunded your money!

The popcorn issue might not be one of your Pack's choosing. To order online at Trails-End you need access info which comes from your council. If your council has had problems with online ordering in the past they might have opted not to participate in that option this year. I can't blame them. My council is not doing online sales either because they were not certain the bugs had been worked out. I believe that when you order online the cost of shipping is included in the popcorn price. You could just e-mail your family the popcorn info & include in the price UPS shipping costs. Then UPS out the product when you receive it. A bit more work, but it gets the popcorn out there.

There are other ways to participate in the Popcorn sale. You & your sons can take the products, or order form, around to your neighbors. You can take an order form to work. You & your sons can participate in Site Sales at local businesses. For many Packs the BSA popcorn sale is how they fund their entire year of expenses for scouting. It also helps fund their council. As the sales blurbs state - approximately 70% of the cost of the product helps to fund local Scouting programs.

If you feel that your current Pack is definitely not a good fit, by all means shop around. Every Pack is different. You should visit den meetings for both of your boys & a Pack meeting if possible of a number of different Packs. If you contact your District Exec. (DE) at your council offices he/she should be able to give you contact info for area Packs. You could also use the Pack locator at Join Cub Scouting -

http://www.joincubscouting.org/locator/index.html

Just enter your zip code and it will give you a listing of the Pack Charter Organizations by town. I am not sure how often BSA updates this site. It might not include any recently formed or dissolved Packs.

Good Luck! Don't give up on Scouting because of a bad start. I am sure there is a Pack out there for your family!

[owl735]

I too agree with Tomcat and other posts. Don't give up, find your District Executive or Director and see where another unit may be that you can visit. Or find an organization that would be willing to charter a unit(Church, Club etc...):D
Scouting should be fun for your scout but also for the families as well.

Good luck!

Sister in Scouting
ASM T215
Skipper S19
Committe member P215
District Program Chair

[Applette]

First, I must say that as unhappy as you are with your scouting experience so far you have actually encouraged me. I have had a very similar experience myself, and I'm across the country from you!

A year ago I called the cubmaster for our pack and asked when the recruitment night would be held so that my son and I could go. He'd been ineterested in being a scout for over a year but wasn't old enough to join. I was told to call the end of October to find out when recruitment night would be. So, that's what I did. What did I find out? Oh...sorry, that was last month. We already had a pack meeting and your den has had two meetings. But I don't know the den leaders phone number...let me give you another boy's phone number instead.

Fine, we joined, and didn't get entered into the system for 2 months. Our den leader didn't do ANYTHING so 3 months later *I* became the den leader. Then I started going to committee meetings. "So, what should we do this month?" "I don't know. Does anyone have any ideas?" Silence. What a joke. And these aren't new people, they seem to be tired people!

I contemplated switching packs but then decided that these are the kids that live closest to us so we should find a way to make it work. I have the time and interest to research scouting and learn everything I can, so I will stick with the pack and help make it a better one. It's been a lot of work, but I have decided to be the communicator. When something doesn't make sense, I start emailing every leader I can. If they don't have an answer, I go to the District Executive. Eventually *someone* can tell me something and then I pass that along.

Things are getting better...we actually participated in the popcorn fundraiser this year. Of course, *I* am the chair of it. That's fine. We had the same online ordering misunderstanding and I told the entire pack to order online, giving out key codes and all, only to discover later that our council did not want online orders taking place during the time of the Take Order Sale. Well...I *did* ask and was told the wrong thing. Ugh. As far as shipping, we were told that the council eats the cost of shipping. So, although Trails End says that shipping is included...it isn't. The pack gets 25% commission but the council gets pretty much nil commission as that is used to pay for shipping. In the TE literature they sneakily describe it as such "We have a special commission structure which absorbs the cost of shipping." So, the pack gets money but the council doesn't and the council doesn't like that.

Hang in there. Offer suggestions. If you can't find anyone in your pack that seems to actually care about the program, then maybe you should look around. Our pack lacks organization but the leaders do seem to want scouting to work and be a good experience for the boys.

Good Luck.
Wolf Leader in WA

[Nuts4Scouts]

There is another way to get many of your questions answered & to find out how things work - Take Training !

National has Fast Start, Youth Protection, Safe Swim & Safety Afloat trainings online at their e-learning site.

Most councils have trainings now, in the Fall, & again in the Spring. New Leader Essentials & Leader Specific training should be taken ASAP. Leader Specific should be taken yearly for your new level. There are trainings for Tiger, Wolf/Bear, & Webelos Leaders.

Councils will also usually hold a day-long training sometime during the year. These are usually called Pow-Wow or University of Scouting or Super Scouting Saturday, etc. They are great supplemental training opportunities.

Last, but certainly not least, are your monthly District Roundtables. Great places to get some new ideas & meet/network with, leaders from around your District.

[COR Trainer]

:(The voice of frustration. Boy, haven't we all been there? However, I am surprised to see so many responses supporting the notion of going somewhere else.

:confused:One of the problems that I encounter as a trainer of adult volunteers (and, yes, sometimes even a professional or two) is the tendancy to forget why we got involved with Scouting in the first place; we are here for the youth, not ourselves. True, we may have times when it all seems to be for naught. But, as I try to stress to all leaders, it is the boy that needs our help; and the most problamatic youth is the boy that needs Scouting the most. We sometimes focus too much on our needs and frustration and forget what the youth need. This may be true with some of your leaders.

But, let's give them the benefit of the doubt. What I hear from you as a parent is a screaming desire to help to do the right thing and make this pack better. Try to realize that many times our own frustration clouds our judgement and we forget what the other person may be going through. This pack desperately needs your help. You have outlined so many areas that can be improved. A talent like this is needed in every unit.;)

Now comes the hard part. How do you get the current leaders to recognize the value of your active participation? Try to keep in mind that they may be overwhelmed by the start of the new Scout year and getting things organized, as was pointed out by others. Many times, all it takes is a question, "How can I help?" to open the flood gates of possibilities.

However, when the message falls on deaf ears, we should look for reasons rather than the door. And believe me, they can vary all over the ballpark.

I agree with Nuts4Scouts that training is the key. However, if the other volunteers have not yet been fully trained, and it certainly appears that they may not have been; you should attempt to find a way to obtain the training not only for yourself, but for the others as well. Maybe your district or council training chair can set up a training session specifically for your unit, or several units in the nearby area. The training may also be available at your district roundtables.

One of the most frequent problems, particularly in the Cub Scout program, is the impression that you can run the program by following the handbook. Well, that only works for a very short time. As you pointed out, the leaders need program ideas on a continuing basis to keep the program exciting and interesting to the boys. Where do you get these ideas? Roundtable, Pow-Wow, and TRAINING!

In my experience in Scouting as a volunteer, I found that I had many of the same concerns. As a former Boy Scout whose father was a Scoutmaster, I felt that something was not as it should be in my sons' troop. The first thing that I did was talk to several of the other parents.

Then we, as a group, signed up for the old "Scoutmastership Fundamentals". At that time, this course was offered once a year in our council. It was a good thing that we all went, because none of us could possible hope to absorb all of the information. But, together, we were able to institute the necessary changes to improve the troop.

A couple of us went on to complete Wood Badge training. Then I was asked to serve on staff for several subsequent courses, including Wood Badge for the 21st Century.

Why do I tell you this, you may ask? Well, as I continually explain to all volunteers that I encounter, you can not possible hope to be able to support and run the Scouting program if you don't understand what the program is.

Also, by understanding that Scouting is primarily a "volunteer" organization, you may be able to understand how the problems you describe can be addressed and solutions developed that will satisfy all.

By all means, contact the District Executive. But also attempt to attend your District Roundtable, and get to know the District Commissioner. If your unit has an assigned Unit Commissioner (Every unit should ave one.), perhaps they can help. But keep in mind that you may run into many "empty suits" in your search. What is an "empty suit"?Well, we all have encountered tham from time to time. The comic "Dilbert" highlights many forms of them, such as the "Pointy Haired Guy". They are so cought up with their own position of importance that they forget what they are really supposed to be doing.

Another one of the most frequent problems that volunteer leaders get themselves into is failing to follow the simple rules of volunteering. The first of these rules is; Find Your Replacement! It so easy to become overwhelmed with what needs to be done that we forget to ask for help. Those leaders may not realize that they need the help that you can provide.

Scouting is a great organization because of people such as you who are willing to point out weaknesses and work to correct them. Stick with it. In all probability, you sons are not as aware as you as to the problems that confront the adults in delivering the program. But, with your earnest assistance they will realize what a great organization they have joined and what a great parent they have for helping to improve it. Persistence will pay off for both you and your unit.

[wannabecubs]

Dear Carolina,

We feel your pain.

My husband and I are too, a little disappointed in how our Pack is also run. We signed up our son (Wolf) in scouting to build character and discipline; to prepare him for life. Note Scouts motto BE PREPARE.

What we got was a bunch of undisciplined and wild kids running around. I wouldn't call this ADHD either; it's call lack of parental disciples. Their "uniforms" are untidy, messy and not to brand. (Why would a parent let a child put red track pants with their blue shirt uniform?) I thought the Scouts have standards in their uniforms and public behavior.

One positive thing about this Pack is our Den. We have a great Den leader; (who will be leaving this year); he has worked hard in making this fun for our kids. We have attended every Pack and Den meeting since we joined. But my husband and I feel we need to find another Pack to join; a Pack that has higher standards and are more organized. How do we do that without making yet another mistake?

As parents we want the best for our child. As parents we need to speak up and ask the proper authorizes to bring the standards in scouting up to par in every Pack and Troop in America; or they the BSA needs to take their Charter’s licenses away.

We need more parents like me and you to speak up about this.

[Nuts4Scouts]

We signed up our son (Wolf) in scouting to build character and discipline; to prepare him for life.

If what you wanted was discipline, perhaps you should look into military school. The purpose of Cub Scouting is not to instill discipline. There are actually 10 Purposes of Cub Scouting. They are -

1) Character Development
2) Spiritual Growth
3) Good Citizenship
4) Sportsmanship and Fitness
5) Family Understanding
6) Respectful Relationships
7) Personal Achievement
8) Friendly Service
9) Fun and Adventure
10) Preparation for Boy Scouts

Their "uniforms" are untidy, messy and not to brand. (Why would a parent let a child put red track pants with their blue shirt uniform?) I thought the Scouts have standards in their uniforms and public behavior.

Scouts do have standards, but what exactly would you have us do to a boy who came to a den meeting, all charged up to learn & have fun, but with the wrong kind of pants on? Yell at him? Embarrass him? Send him home? What if it happens more than once? Do we kick him out of the Pack?

Uniforming is only one of seven methods we use in Cub Scouts to achieve the 10 purposes I listed above. The 7 Methods of Cub Scouting are -

1) The Ideals (Cub Scout Promise, Law of the Pack, motto, salute, sign & handshake)
2) The Den
3) Advancement
4) Family Involvement
5) Activities
6) Home and Neighborhood Centered
7) The Uniform

Uniforming is neither more, or less, important than any of the other methods.

As parents we need to speak up and ask the proper authorizes to bring the standards in scouting up to par in every Pack and Troop in America; or they the BSA needs to take their Charter’s licenses away.

So, if the boys are wild, their uniforms messy, & meetings unorganized, their Pack's Charter should be pulled and everyone kicked out of Scouting? There would be very few units left if that were the case.

Note Scouts motto BE PREPARE

The Boy Scout Motto is Be Prepared.

The Cub Scout Motto is Do Your Best.

[ScoutmasterJerry]

If you are disappointed than what are YOU doing about it. Are you on the Committee? Are you a Den Leader? Are you trying to help the Cubmaster out, maybe offer your services as an Assistant Cubmaster?

See, back when I was a Cubmaster, I could never get parents to participatem beyond showing up for Pack meetings, until one year I put together an annual plan that they all disliked... Hiking, some camping, and stuck strickly to the Program guide (program helps).. after the first two months I got nothing but complaints, so I simply asked; Where were you when we put the plan together, did you add you input.. Scouting is not a dictatorship.. you get a vote, a say...
There is not a Scout leader in America that in his/her right mind turns away help. The pack belongs to everyone in it.

Get involved.. and then complain.

Oh and Nuts4Scouts... You are right on point.. very well put...
For all of you.. reread Nuts4Scouts post.. it is worth the time.

Jerry

[Nuts4Scouts]

Thanks Jerry!

Actually, I was thinking exactly what you posted too!

When my son started in Tigers, I saw that some things needed changing & that the Pack needed help. I wanted to give my son, and all of the other boys, the best program possible, so I signed up & 12 years later I am still "helping the Pack go"!

[wannabecubs]

Gosh I hope that was not your son in the red track pants. By the way, it is not the child, but that of the parents’ fault!

I’m afraid I have upset you and others with my opinions… with that I am sorry.
I am just a mother who would like what’s best for her son and doing so with men who do things very differently then women.

I have every right to voice my opinion and complaints…
Volunteer? Let’s see what I have done…
• I have volunteered to sell popcorn to total strangers in front of the local super market where men gave my son money (not buying the popcorn) because they thought I was cute.
• Beg my employer to donate hundreds of $$ to a great non-profit because of the positive impact the Cub Scouts have on the future
• Giving up my Saturday (7:30 am – 4pm) to attend the University of Scouting so I can make a difference and paying for it out of my own pocket.
• Hosted den meeting at my house
• Doing every Achievement and Electives with my Cub
• May even help with the summer camping trip (I don’t like camping), but will give it a try

So, Mr. Red Track pants, back off. This may not be Military School, but let’s raise the bar and expect more from our Packs, Troops, Parents and boys. It is accepting the poor behaviors and defending it is our own worse enemy. I am not in the military (far from it), I am not an outdoorsy person, but I will “do my best” to make sure my boy is “prepared” with discipline, respect, honor, character…. And have fun doing it.

Again, I apologize but you have taken my post out of context.
One last thing…. Men, be nice to the mothers who are out there with their sons doing the same things the “boys” are doing. It was either me joining the Cub Scouts with my son or take our son and join the Girl Scouts. You tell me which my son would enjoy most?

Thank you.

[Nuts4Scouts]

Nope, Wannebecubs, you did not upset me.

No, my son does not wear red pants, not his style (or mine ;) ). Although he will, at times, wear jeans with his Scout shirt!

And yes, you are certainly entitled to your opinions.

However, this is not about women's opinions vs men's. Or about men doing things differently than women. The Purposes & Methods of Cub Scouting are not simply opinions. They are, according to BSA, why, & how, the Cub Scout program is supposed to be run.

Yes, little boys can be loud, messy, & run around a lot. That is the nature of little boys. When you are dealing with 50 kids from 7 to 11, plus younger siblings, yes, sometimes a Pack meeting can be disorganized & a bit wild.

Should the parents be keeping track of, & disciplining their own kids? Absolutely! Are we going to kick them out of the Pack because they don't? Absolutely NOT!

Yes, wearing a proper uniform is important. It creates a sense of identity & a connection to the program. However, BSA stresses that a uniform is NOT necessary to be a member & I refuse to be the uniform police. This past Sunday we celebrated Boy Scout Sunday in our church. Our Cubmaster's 4th grade Webelos son was receiving his religious award & was extremely excited. He had on a brand new tan scout shirt & could not wait to pin his award on it. He also had on a pair of new, navy sweat pants. Did I wish his dad had purchased scout pants to go with the tan shirt? Yes, I wish that every time I see one of his boys. Was I going to make a fuss, send him home, & have his dad removed from the CM position? Nope! This is a boy who, as a Tiger, was so shy that he would actually hide behind his mom or under the table when anyone spoke to him. Now, 3 short years later, this same young man was leading his fellow Webelos up to receive their awards. As I watched him stand up in front of the entire religious community, & shake hands with our Pastor, I was very proud of him, sweat pants & all!

You state - This may not be Military School, but let’s raise the bar and expect more from our Packs, Troops, Parents and boys. It is accepting the poor behaviors and defending it is our own worse enemy.

What I expect from our Packs, Troops, Teams, Crews, & Ships, is that they follow the program that the BSA has laid out for them & not create their own version of a youth program.

What I expect from our parents is that they support their units & their sons & daughters fully. That they realize that it is the KIDS that count & not the egos of the adults.

What I expect from our boys & girls, is to do their best to live up to their program's Promise/Oath & Law/Code and to HAVE FUN as they learn & grow.

I am glad that you work with your son on his Achievements & Electives. That is how it should be done & to many just leave it up to the Den Leader to do it all.

I am also glad that you volunteer your time & money to help your son's Pack & Den. Family Involvement is a VERY important Method of Cub Scouting, as is the Aim of Family Understanding!

As for "Beg my employer to donate hundreds of $$ to a great non-profit because of the positive impact the Cub Scouts have on the future." Good for you, & good for your employer! Personally, that's where I draw the line. I will talk up the Scouting programs at the drop of a hat & hunt down donations of supplies for our Council Summer Camps & District Day Camp, but I leave the actual fundraising to the District Executive (thats what they are paid for) & the Friends Of Scouting Chair (he is more Nuts than me!).

And don't knock those popcorn Booth Sale donations! They are great! We usually get some donations at each Booth Sale we hold. Although the reasons stated are usually - Hate popcorn but want to support Scouting - Don't have enough $ but will give what's in pocket - Can't carry popcorn on motorcycle but will give $ (from booth sales at Harley dealer!) - Spent most of $ in the grocery store but will give $1-$2 - And the one the older boys hate - Gee aren't those tiny Tigers CUTE! :D I've never had anyone say the donation was because the adults were cute. They have said they felt sorry for us though. Heck, it takes all kinds. I don't really care why they give us donations & I sure would not give them back!

Perhaps it might help your perspective, & give you some insight in what makes a good Pack, if you took the BSA on-line Fast Start Cub Scout Training & Youth Protection Training.

http://olc.scouting.org/

They are free, do not take all that much time & do a great job of explaining the program. Also, if you are hosting Den meetings in your home, Youth Protection training is a must.

BTW - It is Mrs. "Red Track pants", thank you very much! And, both my son & husband were Girl Scouts before they became members of BSA! Granted, son was unofficial, but husband was an Asst Troop Leader for 8 years.

[CommissionerTim]

I must say this was a very interesting thread to read and I wanted to see how it would evolve before I said anything.

First of all, TRAINING is extremely important from the very start. However, just taking Fast Start, New Leader Essentials and Cub Scout Specific or Scoutmaster Specific is only a start. Your training should always be continuing, furthering your knowledge and gaining experiences therefore become more wise and able to help the new leader that will be going through the very same apprehensions you had when you first started.

Secondly, parents must understand that cub scouting is NOT a babysitting service, but a family activity for the ENTIRE family, however we only ask that at least one parent from each family become a leader in the Pack, but if both parents want to be a leader, we surely won't turn you away. There's always something for everyone to do.

Thirdly, National BSA has set GUIDELINES as to how, where, when, what a program shall be, but they are only guidelines. If you're like me and don't have a huge imagination on how to make a program fun for a bunch of boys (and their younger siblings), then the "How to" book and "Program Helps" will become very useful to you. The point is USE YOUR RESOURCES. Make the program fun and the boys will learn from it.

Finally, always remember we are volunteers and we do this to see a better stronger society with strong character, strong morals, and strong leadership. We are here for the boys and girls of tomorrow to help them become the leaders we need them to be. Because they are still kids, we must also remember to make all this learning stuff to be fun for them.

So as a Unit Commissioner, I applaud all of your efforts and on doing your best... but if you truly do feel BURNED OUT then let your other leaders know this so they can make adjustments. Training, Communication with everyone, and making a program fun are the keys to success. One without the other(s) will obviously breakdown your success.


KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK EVERYONE, WE ARE MAKING A DIFFERENCE!!!

[WB Bear]

Unruly meetings can be a problem. As mentioned is several of the other responses, TRAINING is the answer. There is basic job specific training, supplemental training, Roundtables, Powwow’s etc. and the pinnacle of BSA trainings Wood Badge. How does this affect an unruly meeting? You will gain the skills and knowledge to have a fun filled exciting meeting. If the boys are busy you will be amazed how less any discipline issues there will be. This applies to Den, Pack and Troop meetings. A well planned and execute program is the most efficient discipline tool at your disposal.

Uniforming, both at the youth and adult level, is also important for numerous reasons. I do not have any military background, just Scouting. A key point in any kind of leadership role is to “set an example”. You will find, especially with the Cubs, how better they will respond in a uniformed leader. It also sets the atmosphere for the program you are delivering.

For the Cubs it is a great sense of pride for them to wear it and to feel a part of something. Then they can show off their achievements that they have gained and beam with pride. It makes Scouting a special place for them. I believe for the Cub Scouts wearing just the blue uniform shirt will suffice. However, in Webelos, when the begin wearing the tan shirt and are preparing to transition into Boy Scouts they should be wearing a complete uniform.

For Boy Scouts they should be wearing a complete uniform, shirt and pants or shorts. It’s as simple as that. One of the biggest rational for not wearing a complete uniform I have heard is that they are too expensive. I must admit there is some cost involve, but looking at it from that standpoint, how often will the boys wear it? Each month it should be 4 times a week for Troop meetings and also 1 whole weekend camping. As far as the leaders it is the same for them but also Roundtables, training, etc. each month. The uniforms are also quit durable and will last for a long time.

By no means am I a proponent of sending a boy home or not letting him participate due to a lack of a uniform. I also realize that there are families that are really financial unable to handle that expense and finances should never be a reason a boy can’t participate. But arrangement can be made to assist them. Many units and evens some District and Councils have set up an “experienced uniform” recycling program for example.

This does help the boys fully commit to the ideals of our character building program. Parents and leaders should also have full commitment.

I apologize for being so length but these issues hit a nerve with me.

[Scouting Mom]

The refrain here is "training" and "get involved" I'd like to add my voice to those who are encouraging these things...

This is our third year with our pack and it feels like we've been in 3-4 different packs during that time. And the difference is involvement and training.

My husband went to the first meeting wanting to be Tiger Den leader. He volunteered before anyone else had the chance to be talked into it. He wanted to organize, he wanted to go to trainings. He wanted to relive his scouting youth. He started going to trainings and roundtables, despite the CC's lack of encouragement.

At that time, the pack had few Webelos. By the end of the year there were only 2 fifth graders and no 4th. They never attended pack meetings and held den meetings at a different site. The Webelos den leader and the CC didn't get along...let's just say "loathing" would be too weak a description for the feelings between these two. The CC was very much a controlling individual and the WDL did her job because no one else would, but frankly, she wasn't terribly organized. The CM the year before we started, quit and didn't tell anyone for several months. The new CM was a wonderful guy, but tended to let the CC walk over him. The CM encouraged my husband's interest in training, but only out of the hearing of the CC. Only the CM and one DL had the required leader trainings and no one but the CC was BALOO trained at that time.

The CC started talking about leaving at the end of our first year, but only if he could hand-pick his successor. None of his candidates were willing. My husband volunteered, but the CC came right out and told him he didn't want him for the job, so he kept it himself. Over the summer there was a "planning meeting" for the following school year. The CM was out of town, most of the DLs were unavailable. The CC had scheduled it this way on purpose. The CC presented a list of what we were going to do and when we were going to do it. No input requested. Any input given anyway was shot down.

By September, it was clear that the pack was falling apart. Our late September camping trip wasn't planned. The CC declared he wasn't even going. (good thing my husband had defied him and had gotten BALOO trained, along with one other) There was a lot of talk about transferring to another pack (turns out that's where most of our Webelos had disappeared to) The CC walked out of one meeting, appointed a parent, not the CM, to plan the program for the camping trip. It was rumored that he quit, but he didn't, then the CM emailed all the parents HIS resignation. That's when the parents started calling the DE.... The DE talked the CM into staying, the CC into quitting, the CC's handpicked successor into taking that position.

Many of the families who were recruited into the pack during this chaos left. At one point our den had three boys, the DL's son, the new CC's son and one other. We held together with a few key families and muddled through. The new CC and the CM were our glue, but they were fraying around the edges.

In February, the CC, Bear DL, Tiger DL, WDL, pack treasurer, advancement chair, and outings chair all either quit or gave notice that they would be quitting June 1st. The only ones left were the CM and the Wolf DL, both of whom love trainings. BUT we had plenty of notice of all these resignations and most of them weren't actually leaving the pack, just suffering from burnout. All but the outings chair had replacements lined up or someone willing to do double duty until replacements could be found...the CM became CM/DL and the Wolf (now Bear) DL became CC... (this is my husband, who was told by the ex-CC he wouldn't quit if my husband was going to get the job) The transition was remarkably smooth because the CM approached individuals and asked them to take over a specific position ("I know you'd be perfect for this job...")

Parents got involved. The CC and CM went out of their way to personally invite parents to meetings and such, pointing out that if they weren't involved, they had no voice in how things were done. Our planning meeting in June was well attended and a wonderful exchange of ideas. Trainings were strongly encouraged and recommended. As my husband says to parents, "if you go to training, you know how things are supposed to be done and can set me straight."

Our committee/planning meetings are standing room only. We've got car pools going to University of Scouting. Last week, at B&G, our CM/WebI DL ended his double duty by handing over the reins to an new, fully trained, CM and ACM. At least 3 of our parents/leaders are going to BALOO training next month, I'm not sure, but I think a couple went last month too.

Our little 3 boy Wolf den from last year had 8 boys earn their Bear Rank. For the first time in 2 years we had boys cross over into a Troop. There were 5 of them, next year there may be 10.

Every leadership position is filled, including ADLs. We have registered committee members with no specific duties besides being on the committee. We have Tiger DLs lined up for the next two years.

When it became apparent that one of the district's summer day camps had no one to organize it, not a single volunteer from any pack, it was our parents who stepped up to take it in hand.

And the funny thing is, no one is talking burnout and the boys are having more fun than they ever have.

[FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER]

Scoutmom:

Your experiences at first sounded very frustrating and if I were a parent or a leader, I would have been asking myself "what is going on here?"

Your husband's persistance is truelly outstanding. He hung in there and had only the best interest of the boys and the program in mind.

In the end , it sounds like the program has turned around and you are going in the right direction. You are a great story of how to turn a floundering program into a successful one. GREAT JOB!

As a Unit Commissioner, I am going to use your story as a Case Study in my own Training and give it to our District Chairman and District Cub Scout Training Chairman to use in their Training Classes.

Commissioner Tim, do you agree that this is a Classic Case Study that we can use?

[WB Bear]

Scouting Mom, The system does work doesn't it?

Frustrated SM, Success stories are always beneficial to share.

[CommissionerTim]

When a unit gets the right leader in the right leadership role, great things will happen. Like the fingerprint, every unit is unique but does have similarities to other units. If the unit leaders (all leaders of the unit) ignore the advice of other leaders about taking training... or just does not take the advice to heart, then he/she is hurting that unit at the very level where strong leadership is a must for a unit to succeed. Again, we need TRAINED LEADERS to run these units. We need leaders who can and will communicate with everyone. We need unit leaders that will make their program fun for the boys, and not be affraid to use the resources available to them.

Scouting Mom's story is a great case study, there are many different problems that had happened during this transition. But the one leader that Scouting Mom left out was the COR... The Chartering Organization Representative is the one person that can remove volunteers from his/her position... The COR owns the unit and has the right and power to allow and remove a volunteer, why else does the BSA require the COR's signature on a new volunteer's application?!?! The second leader that was left out of the story was the UC (Unit Commissioner)... The UC and COR should have been very instrumental in this entire process. The UC, if involved in this process would have been able to make suggestions as to how to make proper changes and would have been able to guide the CC in the right direction... The CC and UC would be in good current communications with the COR and the COR would have been able to make the proper changes before all the headaches occured.

However, the changes were made and now the unit is thriving and successful. I tip my hat to Scouting Mom and her husband for "SAVING YOUR UNIT"... btw there is an award for leaders for saving a unit. Ask your DE about the award.

[FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER]

Commissioner Tim:

You are right. I totally forgot about the COR. This person is really the person that has the ultimate control of the Pack or Troop. If a good working relationship is established with the COR, everything else will fall into place.
I am sorry that I forgot to mention that in my initial reply.

I also hope that they have a UC assigned to them to guide them along.
Remember, I still green to the Commissioner Service.

;) Overall, though, it sounds like the new organization structure is on the right track..

[Scouting Mom]

I forgot about the UC... I met him during this time of restructuring, and he did show up at a pack meeting or two, but most people didn't realize he was there. I think he has more trouble with keeping his own son's troop afloat at this point... but that's a whole 'nother story.

As for our COR, well, that's a joke. When they were doing recharter last year around this time, the CC and CM discovered that we didn't even have a COR registered with the council. They called to CO to find out who the COR was supposed to be and got an application from him. Back in the fall, the COR left his position with our CO and my husband tried for over a month to contact his replacement to sign the applications. The new COR didn't know what a COR was or that we needed one. The only reason he knew that our pack was somehow associated with them was because he used to be responsible for renting out the social hall where we have our big events (PWD, B&G, etc.). He knew we got to use the hall for free, but didn't know why. He thought they were just being charitable to us. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I know, he should go to training too...I'm not holding my breath for that to happen, though. :(

[CommissionerTim]

Scouting Mom,

You and your husband has done great to save your unit, however, if you want the CO and COR to be more involved with the pack, it is imparative for you and your husband to incourage the COR to take the training or email him or print out the pages for the training and give it to him to read.

http://www.scouting.org/relationships/04-113/index.html COR Training

And then invite him to every committee meeting... also invite your UC to every committee meeting and unit meeting... especially make sure you invite the COR and UC to any awards ceremony ie Blue & Gold, Crossover, Pack Meetings. Remember, they are people too and the more you invite them the more they will feel needed and will want to be part of the unit by volunteering their time to help during some type of function ie fundraiser.

You're doing great... keep up the good work and thank you for volunteering your time to these boys. :)

[Scouting Mom]

They were all invited to B&G. Neither the UC or COR came. The COR was out of town, I don't know about the UC, but the DE was there.

As far as the pack meetings go, the UC knows he has a standing invitation and does occasionally attend, especially this time of year, when we are trying to get rechartering stuff done, but the nearest troop is in worse trouble then we ever were and they meet the same time we do, so I imagine he spends most of his time there. My husband has been in touch with the COR by email, which they both prefer, but I'm not in a position to know how much interest the COR really has in us, now that he knows we exist.

This past weekend was our University of Scouting and interstingly, I took a class on "nurturing relationships" which had part of it's focus on the CO and COR and it gave me some ideas. I think, though, that the main problem with the COR is that it has traditionally be the responsibility of the elected president of the CO, a position that changes every year or two. If they would assign it to someone else, say for example, a community liason person, it would be much more stable. Now that it's time for recharter, we really need to gauge their interest in doing that and see if we can get them more involved overall.

I didn't know that that COR class was online. That's a good idea. I know the district holds classes, but the COR's position in the CO is very time consuming by itself. Online is good.

[CommissionerTim]

Another link that ALL VOLUNTEERS should know about and utilize is http://olc.scouting.org ... All Fast Start trainings for all levels of scouting is available along with Youth Protection, Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat and many others. Even the COR should go through the Fast Start training to learn about each program he/she will be working with. Then he/she should take the training for Pack Committee and the Troop Committee Challenge (which is new to the Online Learning Center).

Training is very important, so important the National BSA has instituted the new Online Learning Center and tied it into the Scoutnet database to better track the training of every volunteer.

I encourage everyone to take every training that is available to you, especially if it is FREE or affordable... There are trainings that do cost a chunk of change ie. Woodbadge... for these trainings, setting up a payment plan is the wisest thing to do if you want to attend these courses. Your council will work with you on these payment plans.

Again, take every training you can... the boys deserve a TRAINED leader.

[FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER]

I agree with Commissioner Tim that every boy deserves a Trained Leader.
Also, every unit deserves a Trained Commissioner. As now that i have entered the Commissioner Service, I will be taking my Basic Commissioner Training within a few weeks. I also agree that if a University of Scouting is offered in your area, all Leaders should go and take any Training Classesz that they would be interested in.
We offer in our District, Fast Start, Youth Proctection, New Leader Essentials. and Leader Specific Training at least twice a year. Also, we offer Outdoor Leader Skills amd Baloo Taining Twice a year.
We also offer Troop Committee Challenge once a year.
So in our District, we offer Training quite a bit and we are strongly recommending to all Troops and Packs that their Leaders attend.
We are striving to to make sure that all boys have a Trained Leader who knows the program and makes it enjoyable for the boys.:)

[1st Mate]

It's amazing the difference a new parent can make with a little counseling and the available training. That is why I think it is important we share positive influences here and be careful about commiserating over personal issues.

I got a call one night from my older brother who attended his first pack recruitment night with his son. I had already been back in scouting for a few years as a troop leader. He said that he was not going to get in scouts but that his son came home all excited after a school presentation and wanted to be a Tiger Cub. I pointed out how much fun we had as scouts and reminded him of all the things his daughter was involved in wouldn't this be a nice thing for him to do with his son.

After his first pack meeting he called again and was appalled at the informality of the meeting, the disorganization and the lack of ceremonies. We reminisced about all the cool things we remembered our dad doing as scoutmaster and how much just a few simple ceremonies can enhance a meeting. You know Jeff, I told him, you could offer to script a few ceremonies for the pack meetings, a nice opening, a candle lit closing, and meaningful advancement ceremony. I am sure e=that the committee would appreciate you sharing your knowledge on how to do those. I can even send you a book the BSA puts out on den and pack ceremonies to get you started.

Months later Committee member Jeff took me to a pack meeting to see how things had changed. The meeting was organized, the ceremonies impressive, he taught another parent how to decorate the room to give it some atmosphere and the cubmaster was doing a great job getting comfortable with the smoother running agenda.

Then Jeff calls. They want him to be the Webelos Leader, I reminded him of how important Webelos was to getting his son a good start in Boy Scouts. So Jeff the Webelos Leader was born. Then his son is headed for Boy Scouts. I invite his family to join mine for a campout to refresh his camping skills. While we are out we talk about how easy it is to be an Asst. Scoutmaster...guess what happens. Jeff ended up spending 8 years in scouting as a volunteer leader and touching a lot of lives in a very positive way. And it all started by him not wanting to get his son in cub scouting.

Every adult in scouting has that same opportunity. If you see that something isn't working feel free to complain about it but don't expect anything to change. All it takes to create change is being willing to give a little more of yourself than just your opinion, and you could impact the life of hundreds of people in your community.