Beware of unofficial BSA resources

[1st Mate]

This conversation started in another thread regarding cub advancement and rather than continue it there I thought it was an important enough topic to stand alone.

We warn our kids about the internet because people and information are not always what they seem (if that guy ever gets out of that prison in Nigeria by the way I am gonna be one rich son of a gun), but then we as parents and scout leaders tend to believe everything we see on the internet with a scout emblem as the truth.

The fact is there are a lot of Internet sites dealing with scouting and the BSA, that are unofficial and run by individuals who may or may not be reputable scouting volunteers (remember the guy in the Nigerian prison?). The fact is that most of these sites are riddled with false or innaccurate information. Just as an example the site mentioned in the other thread supports an activity that is a long standing Youth Protection violation, and has a few advancement policy and procedure violations on it.

It's important to realize that despite the attractiveness of these sites the people supplying the content may be much better at webdesign then they are at scouting, These sites tend to be filled with personal opinions and habits, many of which are outdated, incorrect, or in direct opposition to BSA policies and Methods.

The BSA has a several offical web sites as well as human, print, and video resources that are easily available and provide everything a unit needs to solve problems and provide a quality Scouting program.

This site is just one of those official resources of the BSA.

I would urge volunteers on Roundtable and training staffs to develop a program around the official resources of scouting and to warn volunteers and parents about the dangers of the many unofficial sites that permiate the Interent.

Have an unoffical site that you feel is 100% correct? Compare its information to the offical resources of Scouting and you will be surprised. I have found 1 site that is accurate and it is because it copies word for word from a BSA manual, why not just get the manual? to reproduce the BSA logos and exact text is a violation of the BSA copyright protections, rather than support an unofficial sites illegal activity, just use the official resource.

How many things wrong does a site have to have to be hazardous? Just one, if you are the unfortunate person who finds it and thinks it is true.

If you want to know the official Scouting program you should use official BSA resources.

[WB Bear]

Very good point and I totally agree with you!

[Nuts4Scouts]

Sorry I replied to another post before I saw this.

I really can not see what good it does to make parents and Scouters afraid to use non-BSA ideas. It is very counterproductive, and rather scary.

from my other post -

We are talking about RESOURCES here, NOT BSA program. For BSA policy and program you use the official BSA literature (However, even the BSA National web site has been known to have outdated info on it).

As far as upside down Bobcat, if a Pack has not read it's Tiger Handbooks, or the Cub Scout Leader Book, or simply chooses to ignore them, I doubt that one (1) obscure reference, on a non-BSA site will make all that much difference. There are still Packs out there doing this, and not because of anything they read on the Web. They are doing it because they have ALWAYS done it this way and don't consider it to be a problem even when BSA policy is pointed out to them.

If you want BSA rules and policy, go to official BSA web sites. If you want IDEAS for songs, games, ceremonies, cooking, necker slides, outdoor crafts, local activities, etc, go where your council Roundtable and Pow Wow staff go - the internet.

If you use common sense (& I realize that is a stretch for some adults) you can find an enormous amount of great ideas to mine.

As we are taught in ALL of our BSA trainings - USE ALL OF YOUR RESOURCES!

[1st Mate]

Not everything is a resource. As an example when putting out an electrical fire, water is not a resource.

Something that does not help is not a resource. While the internet can provide recipes, so can a Betty Crocker cook book. The difference, one is tested and reliable, one is not. Which would you guess is which?

The same is true of Scouting and the Internet. One is tested and reliable one is not, which would you guess is which?

I have already proven that one of of the best known unofficial web resources is unreliable, imagine what else is out there.

The BSA has a number of official web resources for units, what need is there to risk using unoffical resource that pose as Scouting resources?

The Internet is a wonderful tool but understand that these unofficial sites are filled with errors, the BSA sites are not.

Thousands of new adults join the BSA each year.They will look at the internet as whole as a valuable resouce but they will not know official information from unofficial unless they are warned? It is unreasonable to expect that they will know the difference.

[Nuts4Scouts]

Sorry, but since BSA does not REQUIRE that I ONLY use "official" BSA resourses like the "How To" book, or the BSA "Program Helps", I will continue to find crafts, games, songs, camping recipies, etc, whereever I can, be it BSA, GSUSA, library, bookstore, or the internet.

[Apache Bob]

Question? How do I know that the website is approved/official or not?
For example: this website says ScoutParents and shows a symbol marked TM. Is that real or not? Sounds real and I think it is as I was told about it from a DD at Council but how do I really know. Is it shown on the National website?
Talk to me

[Den5Pack457]

I'm surprised BSA doesn't have a committee that polices websites for inaccurate data and/or unofficial use of their registered trademarks.

You would think a disclaimer would be required at the least. Interesting.

But, even this forum can also be victim to misinformation and outdated regulatory guidance. I don't think anyone on here purposely gives wrong information, wittingly.

For example, there was a thread about taking the boys popcorn earnings and keeping account of them in "accounts" so they could use their revenue for their own equipment and camps. I was pro on this topic, but after it was all said, done, and researched (He actually contacted the IRS); they said it was wrong. Oops.

However, we're better than most forums. We have District Commissioners, Council level members, and other veteran scouters on here and we do a good job of policing ourselves. Why can't BSA volunteers do this for the rest of the sites out there? Just a thought.

[1st Mate]

No one has said you can't use unofficial sources only that you should consider first using official sources or expert sources on the topics rather than posers. Most unofficial sites, like the specific one Nuts4scouts mentioned, pose as legitimate scouting sources when in fact it is riddled with errors. If you have the training and experience to be able to know the difference then by all means glean what little useful information is there, but beware, if you do not know the difference sites like that can be dangerous.

As an example. there is a sight that claims to be a virtual Cub Scout Leader Handboook. It shows the cover of the offical handboook of that name, and has the chapters of the offical handbook of that name, and it has SOME of the text of the handbook. The problem is it only has some of the text not all of it, and it peppers the BSA text with the personal opinions and habits of the web writer and DOES NOT tell you what text is the BSA's and what text has been added. VERY DANGEROUS.

I agree that it is sometimes difficult to know what is official and what is not. The safest way is to begin your search at the BSA offical website www.scouting.org and follow their links. I would also like to see the BSA publish a list each month in Scouting magazine, and perhaps Boys' Life, of the official BSA web resources available.

The BSA has recently formed a Trademark protection division that has already shut down some sites, but there are an awful lot out there and the legal process is slow. Keep in mind they are only looking at the illegal use of the logos at this time.

Personally, I would not want to see the BSA spend money on tracking down sites with bad info. I would rather see them put their web efforts into continuing to develop existing official resources and create new ones where needed. We can help minimize the damage done by these unoffical sites simply by not visiting them or informing them of the violations. And of course warning others of their dangers I hope will help as well.

There are many sites where one can get games, recipes, songs, and crafts without frequenting sites that pose as Scouting sites. Its a jungle out there, and there are people who are willing to make bad information readily available just to have a hot website. They know more about web design then scouting, and when we damage our unit scouting because of their bad information...they will not care.

There are two beaches available to you, one has clear water, well guarded and free of hazards. Ther other is well posted that there are no guards, dangerous under currents, shark infested, and you swim at your own risk.

The choice is yours.

[Apache Bob]

1st Mate - think your suggestion of starting at the official site www.scouting.org and then following the links is a good one. At article in Scouting and Boy's Life would also would be one each Scouter and Scout would see.
I am now starting to question some of the websites I have been using.

There are two beaches available to you, one has clear water, well guarded and free of hazards. Ther other is well posted that there are no guards, dangerous under currents, shark infested, and you swim at your own risk. 1st Mate, I love your above paragraph with your nautical handle.

[ScoutmasterJerry]

Now I know that this is in the "New Parents" section, but I believe that you can tell most of the time when a site is leading you down the wrong path.

I agree you need to be aware of "Unofficial" sites. However the fact is that the BSA has very little on the Internet, so most of the time you are dealing with an "Unofficial" site. Books and the like are easy to determine weather or not they are "Official".
Back to the Internet...
Like I said, most sites are unofficial, but you can get a feel for the accuracy of the information. Most, not all, but most Scouting sites are built by well intentioned volunteers. Most have a good understanding of the program. Those that do not expose themselves clearly in short order. If you have been trained by the BSA, own a leader book, and have a basic understanding of the BSA programs, you will see the red flags as they pop up.

As one of those that have a site and maintain others, I try extremely hard to stay consistant with the BSA program and follow its policies regarding Internet usage. On my blog I post opinion too, and that is allowed, IF my intent is to promote scouting (which it is) than my opinion should at least be consistant with the Scout Oath and Law and Scouting's programs.
That is the smell test for legitimacy of Internet Scouting resources.

You can tell. If you ever wonder if it's right, than it may not be..check it against "Official" documentation or resources and then determine if you value the site as good for the program.

Happy Scouting!

[WB Bear]

"New Parents" also need to be aware of this.

[1st Mate]

I disagree that the BSA has very little information on the Internet. There are several training modules, almost all the required forms, and every few months more of the manuals are being made available.

Yes, there is far more unofficial information available. Mainly because there are more volunteers working indeopendently putting thisg in the Internet then there are people working at the National headquarters. So ther is no way that the BSa will ever be able to have more official information on the internet until the shut down more of the unofficial sites...A lot more.

The problem with people exceptoing "opinion" over BSA training or resources, is that they have no way to to judge the value unless they look it up. And if they are going to have to look it up anyway, they should just bypass the opinion and get the facts from the BSa resource.

I maintain that the overwhelming vast majority of personal opinion and personal sites regarding Scouting found on the Internet are wrong according to the Scouting program and its methods. No matter how well intentioned they may be, bad info is bad info.

[ScoutmasterJerry]

1st Mate- I agree with you that "Bad information is Bad information". No dispute there.
But lets look at this from both an active Scout and Scouters perspective and that of a fairly new person to Scouting.
As stated, the BSA does have a lot of forms etc on the net. But what we are talking about is rescources are we not.
I can get forms anywhere. I can download forms, visit the council office, or what ever. Forms are not a resource to an active participant. Heck, I print most of the day to day stuff via Troop master.
Where do Scout leaders turn for program ideas- And I will concede that the Program helps for Cub Scouts is great and so is the Troop Program Resource books. What I have found though is that while those books are great, it is nice to find units that have actually tried some of the activities, shared them, and shared their learning. You will not get that from the BSA. Scouting mag. Gives you the inserts from the Troop Program Resource book. And if your Troop is a merit badge mill... that is super.
Listening to other Scout leaders about their collective experience is a wonderful resource and that is what you get on the net (Like this Forum).
From the new persons point of view- Viewing other than official sites may give them a broader flavor of Scouting.. I still would suggest they check it out though.

There is a lot of Bad information out there. That is why I suggest taking a look into the sites before you proclaim them "Truth".
I do not think that that the vast majority however are "Bad". There is little you can do to change a form. There are many ways to teach skills, execute annual plans, and develop stronger Troops (and Packs) that you may or may not get from the BSA and its Training.

Now before I get shot with Arrows... I am 100% in support of the BSA and its policies and procedures. I am 100% in support of the mission of the BSA and work to achieve the AIMs as outlined by the BSA. I am a Traditional Scout leader in a Traditional Scout Troop. I realize though that there are some great resources to be found on the net and other places, and look at all of it with a discerning eye. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, my original post on this topic was in support of your position to "Be aware of Unofficial BSA resources"

BSA Training has gotten better, but even in Wood Badge we talked about networking and finding resources.
I encourage folks to look things up. Nothing wrong with taking an opinion and checking it. You suggest to cut out the middle man.. than you may miss a good resource. I suggest that as long as the resource is consistant with BSA doctrine, teaching, and practice.. than its ok to use. There is not a policy against that.

Happy Scouting!

[1st Mate]

I am all for using the middle man Jerry, I think where we differ is in who we see as the middle man.

I see the human resources for experience and applied skills as the other leaders in your local scouting community who you can see and watch in action to determine if they have skills you want to learn and emulate.

I do not see strangers on the Internet as resources. As an example I recall an Internet scouter who was an "expert" on scouting on one of the 'ask the experts' Internet sites. Later, when I found out his website and visited it he had 5 scouts, only camped at the same three campgrounds repeatedly, his son had been the SPL for over two years, and in that time no Scout had advanced a single rank.

How would a new parent or leader seeking advice from a scouting "expert" have known whether to follow his advice or not?

You would never walk up to a stranger on the street and ask them how to lead a scout unit, why would so many do the very same thing on the Internet?

The BEST way to learn scouting is from the training and resources of the BSA and from the Scouters that you meet in person, where you have the opportiunity to evaluate their knowledge and success using the scouting program.

just my opinion and experience.

[WB Bear]

I have to agree with 1st Mate on this one.

I have been involved in Scouting long before there was an internet and the resources I had was BSA publications. Now in surfing though internet on some of these sites, made by very well intended Scouters, I have found some incorrect information. If you are not familiar with BSA information it is so easy to be lead astray. Knowing and understanding the difference is crucial

I recently was talking with a fellow Scouter who like myself has had many years in Scouting. We both have held numerous positions at all levels in the program throughout the years. He asked me what the first thing I did when I took a new position. I replied duh I went to the training. He replied, no before you did that. I thought a minute and said well I bought the book and read about it. My point is that many leaders don’t even have the book associated with their position or the program they are involved in.

It is imperative that we have and are familiar with BSA publications and information before seeking information elsewhere.

[ScoutmasterJerry]

1st Mate- Bear-

I can not argue with any of your points there, I agree in total.
I suppose my point was (trying to be) that there are some sites out there that offer perspective and "Good" information.
All along I have stated that a discerning eye must be used, now I can see your point that taking advice and information from strangers on the net is not a best practice, I also think that, like you said 1st Mate, a quick view of the site demonstrated credibility. And that is what I recommend.
There are many sites out there that I look at and keep on clicking... while they look good they are little substance, on the other hand there are sites out there that I think offer some good information.

Training- another subject all together, but point is made and taken there too.
I, like you have been to all the training that I can, and always looking to update and find more.
Training is the key to understanding the Boy Scout program.
A leader that does not have "the book" Scoutmaster Handbook, Cub Scout leader book etc. is doing themselves and their unit a disservice.

Thanks for the great discussion gang- I think we all see the same thing, a little twist on how we apply it or use the resources out there.

Thanks again.

Happy Scouting!