Den Size: How big is TOO big?

[DadScout297]

I'd like to get your opinions on den size, if I may. The book says 6-8 Cubs in a Den is ideal/optimal, and I generally agree with that. Any smaller and the boys can't make meaningful teams for games, etc. Any larger, and you run into what I found myself in Monday night.

Due to an odd bit of scheduling, the two elementary schools in our Pack's area had their recruiting almost five weeks apart. I took over the Den when it only had 8 members from the first school. Then they told their friends...8 turned into 12. The next week, 12 turned into 14, and this week, with the kids from the other school, we had TWENTY Wolves. How we got through Monday night, I have no idea. The room was too small, once-attentive kids started to become restless and rowdy, but fortunately we did have extra materials for the crafts, so we managed to keep them mostly busy.

I'm talking with the CM now about the best way to split the Den, since I don't feel it's fair to the boys to just jam 20 of them into a room for an hour. Cub Scouts is supposed to be small-group fun, with a fair dose of individual attention from the DL for each boy, at least that's how I see it. 20 in a room is just another classroom to them, with a different uniform. No matter how many ADLs I might be able to recruit from the parents, 20 will simply never work. As thrilled as I am to have that many new kids interested in Cub Scouting, it's designed around DENS of boys--not HERDS! The CM is looking at shifting a couple of older boys into the Bear den and splitting the rest in two as soon as we can get a volunteer to be the 2nd DL. I don't want the CM to close the door to any more new boys, but I don't want to give the ones we've got a bad experience by overcrowding the dens.

Anyway, I was wondering how you folks feel about den size, and where you think the lines should be drawn? I'm not about to turn any of these boys away, that's for sure, so what's the best way to give them what they need if the parents are unsure about pinning the DL patch on their sleeves?

Yours in Scouting,
DadScout

[WB Bear]

The “way you see dens” is correct.

It sounds to me like you should now have at least 3 Wolf dens in your Pack now. By no means should any doors be closed. Also the other thing that is troubling is you CM suggesting moving the older boys up into Bears, that is incorrect, even if they have completed the Wolf. If they are in the 2nd grade then they are Wolf’s. Each level in Cub Scouting is geared for the boy’s level of development.

So split the den and keep on recruiting.

[Nuts4Scouts]

While BSA states that 6-8 is "optimal", it does not state that there absolutly can not be more than 8 in a den.

That being the case you take as many boys as you feel comfortable with, and have enough help for, and the CC and CM creates 1 or 2 other dens out of the rest. If no one wants to step up for their son and the rest of the boys, then they are free to find another Pack.

I too am confused about your comment concerning the CM making decisions on what Cub level to place older Wolf Scouts. If these "older" boys are all in 2nd grade, but have been held back in school, or have early birthdays, then there is no way that this is the CM's call. 2nd grade is a Wolf Scout, anything else is entirely up to the Scout and his family.

[Apache Bob]

Dad - I agree with WB and Nuts.
You should only have the number of boys that you feel comfortable with and can handle. The others should go into one or two other Wolf dens.
One solution is for the CM to take the rest of the boys until the CM can find other DLs.
Another solution. Have a parents meeting of all the new parents with their sons present. Explain to the parents that you can only take the boys you had from the past year. Between them they need to come up with one or two DLs from their group. The CM and the district training committee can make sure they are trained and of course going to Cub roundtable. Ask the boys to talk to their parents to find the new DLs.
Its not a nice way to do it but the parents will have to explain to their sons why they can not do it. In most cases, you will have one or two to say they will do it.
A Wolf is a Wolf. A Bear is a Bear. Don't mix them.
Let us hear what happens and good luck.

[AmandaRSW]

If these "older" boys are all in 2nd grade, but have been held back in school, or have early birthdays, then there is no way that this is the CM's call. 2nd grade is a Wolf Scout, anything else is entirely up to the Scout and his family.

I talked with my CM tonight about that and she told me that Cub Scouting isn't/shouldn't be based on grade.

You absolutely cannot be a Cub Scout after you turn 11 1/2. You have to go into the Boy Scouts. So working backwards from that you have 18 months as a WEBELO, Then age 9-10 is Bears, 8-9 is Wolfs and 7-8 is Tigers. Regardless of grade.

The Cub Scout program is AGE appropriate material, not GRADE. So whether they are 10 and in 2nd grade or 7 and in third grade it doesn't matter. You go by age, not grade. Cub Scouts isn't a school.

If there are 9 year olds in the Wolf Den then they need to be put in the Bear Den regardless if they are in second grade.



Also, I am highly against telling boys (especially ones that have already started and even have their uniform) that they can no longer be in the Cub Scout program (or even force them to find a new pack) unless their parents step up and be a DL. I refuse to punish children for their parents actions (or in this case - INactions). If you have no other choice but to keep an oversize den, then you do the best that you can do and work around it.
If it gets to the point where you just simply can't handle that many boys, then that's another issue altogether.


:)

[WB Bear]

Amanda, have you and your CM been to training yet and have you read the Cub Leader Book yet?

What is the purpose of the different grades in schools? Isn’t each grade geared for certain age groups, those of similar abilities and at approximately the same developmental stage?

I really don’t understand how you think YOU are “punishing” the boys. What I see that would be hurting the boys would be not giving then the full benefits of the Scouting program as in having too large of a den. What parents decide to do or not do is their decision not yours. We, as leaders, need to deliver BSA’s program.

The Aims of BSA are character development, citizenship training and personal fitness. Attached is a link which describes Cub Scouts Purpose and it also gives the 7 methods we use to accomplish the purpose and also the Aims of Scouting.

www.scouting.org/CubScouts/AboutCubScouts/pandm.aspx (http://www.scouting.org/CubScouts/AboutCubScouts/pandm.aspx)

[DadScout297]

Amanda, have you and your CM been to training yet and have you read the Cub Leader Book yet?
While I realize the Internet is an imperfect communication medium, and that tone and intent can easily be misinterpeted, this comment strikes me as snide and condescending. Hardly the Scouting spirit, is it? If at all possible, I'd prefer the discussion to be friendly, helpful, and informative, not confrontational or adversarial.

At any rate, the interim plan is to move us into a larger room now being used by the smaller Webelos Den, have Opening & Announcements together, then we split up into two groups, one with the new boys who need to finish up on their Bobcat badges, while the other has a monthly-theme-specific activity, then have a large outdoor game combined. That should cover for this coming Monday, and hopefully I can find a couple of parents to step up as ADLs and move my current ADL to be DL of Den 2, with the Committee's approval. I can live with two 10-Cub Dens, since there are always going to be sick days and dropouts. Three 7-Cub Dens might be a bit closer to the ideal, but then attrition and no-shows have a much greater impact. Plus, having two Dens gives all the boys the opportunity for a little constructive competition between them. Attendance, uniform wearing, all that sort of thing. The main downside is that it doesn't leave much (if any) room for expansion. But since we're nearing the max capacity of the Scout Building anyway, unless the new kids are Cub-Recruited, the CM is going to recommend new walk-ins try the Pack at the Methodist church a few miles away. If all goes well, that should solve the crisis.

[bigkid]

Well, it seems you've handel that well.
As far as grade or age I believe in the grade. My son turned 9 but is in 3rd grade he needs the socialization of his pears not his age group persay. He was held back for social reason and to move him from Bears to Webelos would be unfair to him and to his den. So I'm glad you decieded to keep the Bears as Bears.

[WB Bear]

The comment was not meant or intended as condescending or even adversarial. It is a legitimate question.

Leaders are often confronted with difficulties. Many of those situations can be solved or even more importantly avoided by understanding and following the program BSA has instituted.

This internet forum as well as other forums or any other gathering of Scouters, are great for discussions and exchanging of ideas and recourses. The most important source of information is BSA training and literature. It is getting the information regarding the Scouting program from “the horse’s mouth”.

[Nuts4Scouts]

I talked with my CM tonight about that and she told me that Cub Scouting isn't/shouldn't be based on grade.

Your CM is incorrect.

You absolutely cannot be a Cub Scout after you turn 11 1/2.

Also incorrect. The correct rule is that a boy can stay in Cub Scouts until the end of 5th grade - OR - he reaches 11.5 years old. Which ever comes LATER.

So working backwards from that you have 18 months as a WEBELO, Then age 9-10 is Bears, 8-9 is Wolfs and 7-8 is Tigers. Regardless of grade.

The Cub Scout program is AGE appropriate material, not GRADE. So whether they are 10 and in 2nd grade or 7 and in third grade it doesn't matter. You go by age, not grade. Cub Scouts isn't a school.

If there are 9 year olds in the Wolf Den then they need to be put in the Bear Den regardless if they are in second grade.

Again - Incorrect. In 1977 the Cub scout program was changed to coincide with the school year. In 1986 Cub Scouting was expanded to include all elementary grades from 1st thru 5th.

From the BSA National Web site -

http://scouting.org/Media/FactSheets/02-502.aspx

It is a year-round family program designed for boys who are in the first grade through fifth grade (or 7, 8, 9, and 10 years of age). - The Tiger Cub program is for first-grade (or age 7) boys and their adult partners. - The Wolf program is for boys who have completed first grade (or are age 8). - The Bear rank is for boys who have completed second grade (or are age 9). - Webelos. This program is for boys who have completed third grade (or are age 10).

From the BSA Youth Application, on who is eligible to join Cub Scouting -

http://scouting.org/filestore/pdf/28-406C.pdf

Tiger Cub—Must be under the age of 8, have completed kindergarten or be in the first grade, or be age 7.
Cub Scout—Must have completed first grade but not completed third grade, or be age 8 or 9.
Webelos Scout—Must have completed third grade but not completed fifth grade, or be age 10 but not yet 111⁄2.

As you can easily see, Cub Scouting is BOTH grade AND age based. This was done to enable boys who have skipped, been held back, or are disabled to be able to participate at the level that works best for THEM.

All of this information is covered in Cub Scout Leader Training, and is in the Cub Scout Leader Book.

The ONLY Cub Scout programs that are strictly age based are the LDS Chartered Cub Scout Packs. They register boys as a Wolf Cub Scout at age 8 (no program for Tiger, or younger, at all). The Scout then moves to the next level of Scouting each year on his birthday.

[DadScout297]

Well, it seems you've handel that well.
As far as grade or age I believe in the grade. My son turned 9 but is in 3rd grade he needs the socialization of his pears not his age group persay. He was held back for social reason and to move him from Bears to Webelos would be unfair to him and to his den. So I'm glad you decieded to keep the Bears as Bears.We may still move some boys to the Bears on age, although I'm not 100% sold on that.

The Official BSA website here (http://www.scouting.org/Cubscouts/Awards/Boys/advancement.b.aspx) says that a boy who has either a) completed the First Grade OR b) is 8 years old is a Wolf. A Bear is a boy who has either completed Second Grade or is 9 years old. Webelos, completed Third Grade or is 10. Further, it says that a Wolf who has completed his Wolf Badge may work on the Wolf Electives for Arrow Points until he finishes 2nd Grade OR turns 9. After that, he is a Bear.

If you are a hard-line, always-by-the-book, letter-of-the-regs rules lawyer here's the problem: what do you do with a 2nd Grader who will turn 9 a month or two after he joins? (We have several kids in this situation.) Which criterion has priority? If you go solely by age, you have boys graduating into and out of your dens on a monthly basis. If you go solely by grade, some boys get almost no time to complete their achievements before their birthday renders them ineligible.

If I had to choose, I'd lean towards giving grade the priority over age. It's a close call, but since the school system has already inflicted one classification system on the boy based on an arbitrary cutoff date, might as well keep it as the determining factor to keep classmates together. I see promoting by age as of less overall benefit to the boy, but that's just my opinion.

Regards,
DadScout

[DadScout297]

Also incorrect. The correct rule is that a boy can stay in Cub Scouts until the end of 5th grade - OR - he reaches 11.5 years old. Which ever comes LATER. Not to be overly pedantic, but the "which ever comes later" bit is not explicitly stated in the Application Form you quoted from. It turns out to be true, but only because of a convoluted piece of logical evaluation, which, if you're at all squeamish about math, I'd just take my word for and skip the rest of this post. :)


Still reading? Okay, here's how it plays out:
Webelos Scout—Must have completed third grade but not completed fifth grade, or be age 10 but not yet 11-1⁄2.
If you want to get extremely nit-picky about what this is really saying, you have to take into account the rules of precedence of logical operators in mathematical statements. In order of precedence, a "NOT" condition is evaluated before an "AND" condition, and all "ANDs" are evaluated before any "OR" conditions. (In syntactical terms, the word "but" is equivalent to a logical "AND".)

Therefore, to put the Webelos info from the application form into logical evaluation terms, it reads Webelos Scout = [A and (not B)] or [C and (not D)], where:
A = completed third grade
B = completed fifth grade
C = reached age 10
D = reached age 11.5.

Since the comma after the phrase "fifth grade" splits the condition, the "or" in the middle is absolute (i.e., not a part of either grouping) and therefore the condition is true as long as EITHER or BOTH pieces is fully true. That means that even if he is above 11.5 (which would make the latter half false because of D), as long as he has not completed 5th grade, then the first half is true, so the whole thing evaluates to true. Consequently, Nuts is correct about "whichever comes later", QED.

Just for (ahem) "fun", here's how the criteria for "Scout" parses out, if you're at all interested:
Your son can be a Scout if he has completed the fifth grade and is at least 10 years old or is age 11 or has earned the
Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but has not reached age 18.
Scout = ((A and B) or C or (D and E)), and (not F),
where
A = completed fifth grade
B = reached age 10
C = is age 11 (should be "has reached", technically)
D = earned Arrow of Light
E = reached age 10 (= B)
F = reached age 18.

Since E = B, it can be rewritten as:
Scout = {[(A or D) and B] or C} and (not F)

which, boiled down, means only that you can be a Scout at 10 if you've either completed your Arrow of Light or finished 5th Grade, otherwise you have to be between the ages of 11 and 18.

Logically yours,
DadScout

[WB Bear]

Remember on of the Aims of Scouting to citizenship training. He belongs to a den of his peers. It is not unusual to have boys who are older in a grade in school as Bigkid alluded to and there are also numerous other reason. When the boy joins he joins at the level he fits into. For example the 2nd grade you spoke of he will stay in the den until the end of the school year. He will also be among HIS peers and working with material that is geared for that level. The boys should be placed at a level which is best for them, not best for the leaders. BSA has those variables in order to better placement of the boys at there developmental and social stage.

The bottom line to this issue is it is time to recruit more leaders to handle more dens of the appropriate size. Having large dens is not delivering the program as it is intended. You do not move a boy up just because you don’t have the leadership and from the sounds of it with that many boys then there are plenty of adults that can help out if they want their child in the program. Not only are the dens on of the methods Cub Scouting uses to accomplish the Aims and Purpose but it is also family involvement.

[Nuts4Scouts]

Not to be overly pedantic, but the "which ever comes later" bit is not explicitly stated in the Application Form you quoted from. It turns out to be true, but only because of a convoluted piece of logical evaluation, which, if you're at all squeamish about math, I'd just take my word for and skip the rest of this post. :)

Actually, my quote from the Youth Application was 3 posts BELOW my comment of -

"The correct rule is that a boy can stay in Cub Scouts until the end of 5th grade - OR - he reaches 11.5 years old. Which ever comes LATER."

That rule can be found, in almost those exact words, in The Cub Scout Leader Book. A very good book to have in both your personal Leader's library and your Pack's library. Just about all of BSA rules as they pertain to Cub Scouts can be found in there.

The Youth Application is for boys (and girls) who are joining BSA for the first time. In most cases, the grade level would take precedence over the age when registering. If a boy does not have the skills for 3rd grade work in school, he is most likely not going to have the skills for working on Bear achievements in Scouts. To put him in a group of 3rd grade boys, who he does not know, when he is not comfortable, or able, to work at a 3rd grade level, is extremely unfair to that boy. Odds are that you will loose him to Scouting completely in short order if you do that.

Your 9 year old 2nd grader should be registered as a Wolf Cub Scout. He will have his entire 2nd grade year to work with his 2nd grade classmates on his Wolf achievements and electives. At the end of the school year (late May, early June), when he graduates from 2nd grade and moves into 3rd grade he will also graduate into a Bear den with the rest of his friends. This 10 year old, 3rd grade, Bear Cub Scout will then work on Bear awards until the end of the school year. When he graduates into 4th grade, he, along with his fellow den mates, will graduate into a Webelos Den. Your 11 year old 4th grader will then work toward his Webelos Badge and AOL. Sometime in his 5th grade year, this then 12 year old will, along with his 5th grade den mates, leave the Cub Scout program and cross over into a Boy Scout Troop. This 12 year old boy can, if he and his parents wish, stay in Cub Scouts until the end of the school year when he graduates 5th grade. At that time, his Cub Scout career will have finished, and he will have to cross to a Boy Scout Troop.

I hope this clears things up for you a bit.

[T23]

Hmmm, BSA policy as stated in the Cub Scout Leader book: "A den is a group of six to eight boys within a pack, ...". There is nothing stated about this range being just a suggestion or a recommendation; yet this remains one of the methods of Cub Scouting (and Boy Scouting for that matter) where, for the convenience of adults, leaders frequently feel free to do darn near whatever they please. And for those of us who have been around a while we have heard all of the rationales and justifications on why it is ok to make whatever number fit whatever situation. Horse hockey.

A while back I spent some time looking at the new on-line Fast Track program for Cub Scout Advancement and was somewhat taken aback when I noticed in one of the introductory slides that in this on-line program the BSA states that a den consists of is 8 - 10 Scouts! No kidding?

If National wants to change their policy that is certainly fine by me. At the same time, if National is going to change policy on something as critical as a method of Scouting then it certainly should get the word out... we shouldn't just stumble across it in some on-line training program. And I must say that, to date, I haven't seen these same numbers repeated anywhere else in BSA.

On the off chance that policy has not changed and that this is just a mistake... well mistakes do happen. It is a just a shame to see a mistake this glaring slip thru, especially when it relates to the one method of Scouting that probably causes the most grief for those leaders who are doing their best to deliver a quality program.

[1st Mate]

If the training course said 8-10 in the den it would not be a policy change since the den size is a program recommendation based on best practices and best results and is not a BSA policy.

However, I just looked at the Wolf/Bear Fast Start on-line training and it gives the recommended Den size as 6-8 boys.

It has been my experience that more that 8 scouts creates a number of progrm hurdles within a Den program.

[T23]

Wolf/Bear Fast Start on-line training for leaders nor any of the Fast Start leader training series are not the same program as was referred to in the on-line Fast Track program for Cub Scout Advancement:

FAST TRACKS is a series of den meeting plans (two den meetings per month) designed to be used in conjunction with the youth handbooks. By following the prescribed den meeting plans as written, the boys will fulfill the requirements necessary to earn the badge of rank by early spring.
Reference, http://www.bsascripts.com/fasttracks/