Parental Management of Scout Career

[FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER]

As stated by my user name, FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER, I have a problem with parents managing their son's Scout Career. They want and expect me to make their son an Eagle Scout withoput them having to live by the Scout
Law and Oath. In the past, I was very easy on passing off on requirements.
Since I have now taken a tougher stance, the parents are acting as if I put in some sort of unattainable goals to earn Rank Advancements. I try telling parents it is a journey to Eagle but not a race. this has caused a great deal of backstabbing of me by parents. It has gotten to such a point that some parents want to pull their boys out of my Troop because "I am mean to the boys." All because I expect the boys to act like Scouts and and earn their Advancements. Please offer me some advice on how to proceed. I am so frustrated that I almost resigned. I only have the interest of the Scouting ideals in mind. Am I wrong to feel this way?

[Hopalong]

Like many other Scoutmasters, I feel your pain. A few years ago, I resigned my position as proud Scoutmaster of my own former Scout troop, which is now about 80 years old. It was heartbreaking. I was informed by some rather charged parents that "anyone who wants to be an Eagle Scout in this day and age should not be denied the privilege." From my perpsective, the rank of Eagle Scout is a product of hard work, dedication and material accomplishment, along with a rare combination of well-developed leadership skill. I feel that the real purpose of Scouting is to make our boys better and more productive citizens. Regrettably, a growing number of parents view the purpose of the Scouting program as nothing more than a vehicle to secure an Eagle Scout entry on a college application or resume. NOT ALL BOYS WILL MAKE EAGLE (if the leaders are managing the program honorably)! It is mostly up to the boys.

Unfortunately, values and principles are driving parents less than portfolio development of their sons. It is probably important to say that both my sons are still in Scouts, and I am still a believer!

[CommissionerTim]

Do you have a Unit Commissioner to talk to about these very issues? From what it sounds like is that neither of you do not have a UC. What I am reading and understanding is that your boys want to make eagle as fast as they can... There is nothing wrong with that... there are cases documented where the boy has achieved eagle in 2 1/2 years right after crossing over from webelos. The scoutmasters job is to make sure the boy has done every requirement for each rank AND by case by case basis grade each boy on how you feel if he has learned and lived by the scout law and oath by his very actions on his daily life. Now the last part is almost impossible because you only see these boys but once a week... it might be easier to do this grading if you were to see these boys more often ie. church, sports, school etc. but you only see them once a week really. So being that a troop is a BOY RUN UNIT the scoutmaster grades the boys ability to lead his patrol by using the scout oath, law, motto, slogan and outdoor code. If the boy can live mostly by these during the meetings and outings, then the scoutmasters job is fairly simple... to make sure the meetings and outings include the FUN element.

Now for the not so popular subject of how old should the scout be before he earns his eagle... Plain and simple... it is not up to the scoutmaster to determine how old the boy must be before he earns the eagle rank, nor is it the troop committee's... it is up to the boy!!! Therefore, every boy that has earned (doing the work required for each rank) and has the scoutmaster conference with his scoutmaster to talk about what his plans are for the next six months and what he would like to do as a leadership... you should be able to get a general concensis if the boy is ready for the next rank... REMEMBER THIS IF IT'S THE LAST THING YOU REMEMBER -- the boy is only human and to be human is to make mistakes and learn from them... even if he's keeps making the same mistakes over and over and over and over again... so by saying this, you must make a judgment call every time... if you're going to hold a boy back, then you better have a solid reason why and it better not be because he's too young... Advancement is not based on the boys age like it is in cub scouts, it's based on the boys ability to do fulfill the requirements of each rank. All kids (boys and girls alike) learn and mature at different rates, so if you feel the boy is not mature enough, this does not mean he hasn't learned. All you need to do is make sure he has fulfilled the requirements of each rank. From experience, comes maturity and wisdom. Let the boy be a boy... let him have fun, and keep it safe. Kids learn faster when they're having fun.

I'm just curious... have you taken all of your necessary training to be a TRAINED leader? If not, then you are missing a huge piece of the puzzle that you need for your leadership position... but if you have, then I suggest you take some refresher trainings and extra trainings offered at a University of Scouting or WoodBadge and attend more roundtables during the year. Every little bit of knowledge can help you do a better job as a leader. This also goes for your boy leaders. We are all learning and we all forget things too... so keep taking the trainings that are offered by your district or council.

Now for the parents... they also need to learn what scouting is about so the best way for them to learn this is to take a FAST START training... a video the council can let you borrow or you can give the parent this link -- http://olc.scouting.org -- and have them take the training online. But keep in mind that face to face training is best in most cases.

Above all else, HAVE FUN!!!!

[ScoutmasterJerry]

I am glad that I am not in your shoes.. but you need to stand your ground.
Is not the objective to EARN the rank of Eagle?
To many times it is the destination and not the journey. I think that there are parents out there and feel that once their son "Gets" his Eagle that his Scouting life will end and they will have more free time. Crank it out and move on to the next thing.
Another term that I absolutly hate is "Eagle Out"... what the heck does that mean? Once a Scout earns his Eagle Award and Rank does he not have an obligation to the Troop and the younger Scouts... or was it all about him and his Eagle?
There are leaders in our District that are satisfied with "Eagle Out". Get as many Eagle Scouts as possible and watch them go away.... giving nothing back to Scouting.
It tarnishes the Eagle hanging from the ribbon in my opinion. It takes away from the achievement and value of the Rank. I remember when I was a Scout (way back when) we had two boys in our Troop Earn their Eagle. It was the most impressive thing I had seen. I never finished mine, made it to Life and got to old. But it was my fault, not that of a Scoutmaster or Meritbadge counselor. I am glad they did not walk me through it.. I am happy now that they pushed me to work hard, falling short is not a tragedy, the journey was still priceless.
Now that I am a Scoutmaster.. I leave it up to the Scout to Earn his way down the Eagle trail. I will help him in anyway, but on the day the award is pinned on his shirt, he (and his parents) will know that he EARNED IT.
I have 3 Scouts that have worked their way to Life. All three are no were close to Eagle.. and during their Scoutmaster conferences I told them all to slow down and enjoy the journey. All three have plenty of time to get there, they need to look around and not let the special times get away from them.

To the parents.. well I would suggest they exercise patients, or find another Eagle Mill Troop... It is important that parents and Scouts find a troop that they like, that meets their needs, that they feel comfortable in. If you are looking for gimmies.. my Troop is not for you.

Stand your Ground. It is to be Earned..not given.

Jerry Schleining
Scoutmaster
Troop 664 (http://www.scoutingpages.org/us/or/troop664/)
Gresham, OR

[Nuts4Scouts]

Sorry guys, but this is one of my hot buttons. From unregistered parents to Wood Badge trained leaders to Scouting professionals, why, oh why, do all of them insist that achieving the rank of Eagle is the purpose of the Boy Scout Program!!

I must admit to being flumoxed! It is one of the first thing you learn when you take training. It is in just about every BSA pulication.

From BSA National Web site -

http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-503.html

The Scouting program has three specific objectives, commonly referred to as the "Aims of Scouting." They are character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness.

and

Specifically, the BSA endeavors to develop American citizens who are physically, mentally, and emotionally fit; have a high degree of self-reliance as evidenced in such qualities as initiative, courage, and resourcefulness; have personal values based on religious concepts; have the desire and skills to help others; understand the principles of the American social, economic, and governmental systems; are knowledgeable about and take pride in their American heritage and understand our nation's role in the world; have a keen respect for the basic rights of all people; and are prepared to participate in and give leadership to American society.

Note that nowhere in either of those quotes does it say "Earn the rank of Eagle"!

Advancement is only one of eight methods used to achieve the above "Aims of Scouting". All eight methods are equally as important to utilize. Outdoor Programs is also a method. Do you have parents pushing to get their son on a Philmont Trek as soon as possible? Do you have leaders cutting corners & changing rules to get them there? Do they do Philmont then "out"? Of course not.

We all need to remember that Scouting is a "game with a purpose" and that purpose is not just to earn Eagle.

[FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER]

Commissioner Tim you are missing the point of my frustration entirely. I said nothing about a boy attaining Eagle. I said it was about PARENTS who are managing their sons career. I have a boy right now who is age 13 AND has all of his Merit Badges for Eagle. I object to Parents who want their boys to be Eagle so that they can move on to other things.

Next, I take exception to your comment about the UC. I DO have a UC AND
he backs what i am trying to do. Also, our DE is an Eagle Scout, Former Chapter, Lodge, and Section Chief in the OA. He supports what I am trying to do The Minister at our Chartered Organization is a Former Scoutmaster and is an Eagle Scout. BUT, it is the Parent's who don't get it.

Finally, i take exception with you about Training. I have taken all my training except Wood Badge. I am a Trainer for JLTC now Troop Leader Training. I sit on our District Star Life and Eagle Board. I am Roundtable Commissoner so you comment about attending Roundtabe is not pertinent. I have also received the Scoutmaster of the Year Award in our Districtas well as the Scouter Key, Scoutmaster Training Award, and NESA Scoutmaster Award of Merit.

So I ask you, What would do in my shoes to handle parent's who don't get or understand the goals and objectives of Scouting?

[ScoutmasterJerry]

I know your comments are directed at the Commish...
But the answer is really simple.

You are the Scoutmaster.. you hold the key.
You are the one that does the Scoutmaster Conference and sends the boys to the BOR.
Tell the parents. Sit them down and lay it out in plain english that this is the way it is... we are not in Cub Scouts anymore.. Parents do not sign off the books, they do not do the work, they do not push..they encourage.

Let them know up front that you will not recommend a BOR if the Scout is not ready. And then explain what ready means.

You have all the answers.. you gave us the resume.. Just apply what you know. And what you know is right.

Jerry
Scoutmaster
Troop 664
Gresham, OR

[FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER]

Scoutmaster Jerry:

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I will stick to my guns and uphold BSA guidelines for advancements and our Troop requirements for Advancement. To Diminish the Rank of Eagle is something that I will nevedr due.
You should also know that besides being a Scoutmaster, I am the father of an Eagle Scout, who had to EARN his Eagle. It was not given to him because he was my son, Matter of fact the Eagle BOR was a little easier on him than I was.:)

[FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER]

Hoalong:

Yesterday, I replied to Scoutmaster Jerry and thanked him for his words of encouragement. Unfortunately, after further discussion with my Committee
Chairperson and the minister at the Church, we all decided that I should resign. This was a very gut wrenching for everyone. The real kicker was when my Troop Committee Chairman said that the Committee had voted my wife off the Troop Committee because "they don't feel comfortable talking about me while she is in the meeting." that was the straw that broke the camel's back. I can no lon ger work with a troop that feels that way.
:( The only good thing is that my DE is not going to let me leave Scouting. He is going to make me a Unit Commissioner so as to keep me active. Thanks for your support.

[ScoutmasterJerry]

Well Good luck to you...
It seems that your Troop / Committee has some issues that really need some TLC.
But..not knowing all the details, personalities and overall flavor of your unit, it is hard to tell where the problems lay.
Needless to say, if they do not buy into the basics though..they have problems, and it will only end up hurting the Scouts at the end of the day.

I am sorry to hear this.

Good Luck.
Be a Great Commish..they are truely needed.

Jerry

[WB Bear]

Frustrated Scoutmaster, I am sorry to hear about your resignation. I agree with Scoutmaster Jerry position. Some parents believe that attaining Eagle is the goal of Scouting, but it's the Trail to Eagle we are providing. There should not be any shortcuts. Those “shortcuts” are a disservice to all those who have been on that Trail.

I am happy you are entering the Commissioner Service. You will find that also very rewarding. Best of Luck!

[Manpow5]

Dear Frustrated Scoutmaster and others, who have posted with the same feelings,

I am currently a Boy Scout and hold the rank of Eagle proudly. I am also the current Senior Patrol Leader for Troop 449 in Overland Park, Kansas. I have read many of your posts understanding what you are feeling, even though I am not a Scoutmaster. I helped start my troop back a few years ago when I was only a first year scout. A group of us wanted a small more BOY LEAD troop. I agree with many of you when you say the trail to Eagle has become easier than when you were in scouts. If you have never read the poem "100 Scouts" please do. It tells about the journey of scouts and how many will make it to each rank. Many parents ARE trying to load their son’s college transcript to try to make it easier for them to get into college. This is one part of Boy Scouts that has lost its true meaning. The rank of Eagle is supposed to be a hard and very educational for the scout. It should never be handed over to him just because he attended all the meetings and campouts, but did not do any work. I would strongly advise you Scoutmasters to try teaching your boys the concept of an Eagle Scout and make sure their parents are around to hear you speech too. The less the parents and even adult volunteers are involved and the more the troop is ran by the boys the better the troop will be and the boys will have much more fun then if you scoutmasters planned and did everything for them. :)

Jacob Davis
Senior Patrol Leader and Eagle Scout
Troop 449
Overland Park, Kansas

[cubbobwhite]

The most frustrating part of this situation is no matter how much you try to stick to the rules and try to make the boy responsible for his own advancement, the parents will just go troop hopping until they find a troop that will do what they want and they get the Eagle award that they want.

[WB Bear]

Mr. Davis I believe you have miss-titled your response. It should be "An Eagle Scout's View". You hit the nail on the head. Thanks!

Lesli that situation is frustratiing and common. Those units are cheating the boys by not letting them reap the full benefits of the Scouting program.

[ScoutmasterJerry]

Cubbobwhite.. (and I assume a good 'ol Bobwhite too) discussed Troop hopping...
Well I say, let them hop.
Does this do a service to the Scout..No.
But at the end of the day, I look at it like this.
Everytime, I am with the Scouts I am doing my best to teach and demonstrate the Scout Law. This is the job of the Scoutmaster.
I do this with the Adults of the unit too... after all, we want them to be good examples too.
The test is this. can you answer Yes to all 12 points....
Are you being Trustworthy?
Are you being Loyal?
Are you being Helpful?
Are you being Friendly? Kind.. Obedient...you get the point.
If you answer No to any of the questions.. you are not living the Scout Law (Which you make a promise to each time you say the Oath).
So what does this have to do with Troop hopping?
Well... pin the rose on Mom and Dad... how are they answering the questions?
Do they know the questions and what they mean.. more important.. does the Scout? If you answer no to that.. than you are not living the Oath and Law and therefore.. no matter what Troop you hop to.. you are not QUALIFIED to be an Eagle Scout... let alone a Tenderfoot.
Troops that let the Scout Spirit requirement slide, or are to quick to sign it off need to reevaluate what they are teaching the Scouts.
If we do nothing else in this awesome organization we should teach the Law.
And by teach the law I also mean demonstrate it.... Daily.
So let them hop... they will find exactly what they are looking for... a merit badge mill Eagle factory.
In the end the Scout and his Parents will know that they did not earn it. And that they will have to live with forever.


Happy Scouting

Jerry

[FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER]

As many of you know, i recently resigned as Scoutmaster of my Troop. The Church is going totake back control fof the Troop by removing some parents who are on the Board with members of the Church. The Committe Chairperson asked one of my Assistants to be the "Interim Scoutmaster." this person wants all of the records, yet he has not filled out an application to be Scoutmaster nor has the Church and Charted Rep approved him. The funny thing is that on our Charter Renewal, I am still listed as the Scoutmaster. I found out that if I was removed from the Charter, the Troop would fold temporally because there would be no Scoutmaster listed. I could not do that to the boys. Maybe the parents.
How would you handle these requests from the "Interim Scoutmaster"?

[Nuts4Scouts]

What records do you have that have could possibly need?

When you resigned as SM, any and all records/paperwork should have been turned over to the CC. That is what I suggest you do now.

[Nuts4Scouts]

Changes to the Charter do not happen instantly. When the new SM paperwork goes into your Council registrar, they will take you off of the Charter & replace you with the new SM. At least that is how it should work. Some councils however, are very slow about updating, & it is entirely possible for your name to stay on the Charter until the next time it is up for renewal.

If you call your council & insist to be taken off, the Troop will not fold. Most likely your council would simply adjust someone else's registration to read SM until they get paperwork in.

[ScoutmasterJerry]

Well...
Here is the world of recharter and charters as I know it.
If I were a betting man.. I would put money that you will be the Scoutmaster on record well into the next recharter. They will not remove you until they have an application for a New Scoutmaster.

Unless someone from the Chartering Organization went to the Council and had you removed.... you are still the man.... on paper.

So the unit will be able to maintain its charter well into 2008.
Districts and Councils are not to quick to drop units.

Jerry

[WB Bear]

Until the council receives notification from the unit of the new one, you will be listed as the SM. Be sure to return all records, equipment, etc. of the Troops to the CC.

[FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER]

Good Morning Everyone!


As I stated before, my District has made me a Unit Commissioner. I did not realize the important role that a UC plays in Scouting. I look forward to this new challange. I know that now I will serving and helping more boys and adults in a positive way. I will be serving 2 Scout Troops and 1 Cub Pack. I am going to have to re-learn about Pack Operations though.

Also, I have now been asked to serve as an Associate Chapter Advisor to the local OA Chapter. So now I will be attending all Chapter, Lodge and Dixie Events.

So you can see, I am starting a new Chapter and I am going to jump in headfirst and do the best job that I can.

Commissioner Tim, If you can provide me with any guidance, I would appreciate it.

Thank you all for all of your support

[ScoutmasterJerry]

So I guess all that is left is to change your name in the message board to "Frustrated Commissioner".

Good Luck to you.
The OA can really recharge the batteries. I am also an Assosiate Advisor in our Chapter for Service.
You can do so much for Scouting in that Capacity.

[CommissionerTim]

I would be happy to mentor you as a new commissioner. The first thing you really need to do is get your Basic Training and then take as much training that is available to you ie. all commissioner training, all troop level trainings, all pack level trainings, all venturing level trainings, College of Commissioner Science, University of Scouting, Woodbadge etc... Once you've earned your trained strip (Basic Training) for your UC position, start working on your Arrowhead Award, this will take a full year to do.

In the meantime, your District Commissioner will assign you a mentor to work with and answer questions when you have them... you should also use the internet to read what others have problems with and how they solved them... the best website I can give you is www.netcommish.com (http://www.netcommish.com) Andy gives some great advice to "Frustrated Leaders"... you'll probably find his advice colunms very useful.

The best advice I can give you now is simply "LISTEN" to your leaders you are helping. Most of the time they will solve their own problems just simply talking it out with you. You are a valueable experienced leader, and they will respect that. Let them come up with their own answers, unless their answers specifically violate the Youth Protection Guidelines, then you as a UC should point this out, but do it respectfully.

Another useful website is http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=cm from National BSA.

I'm very sorry to hear that you resigned your Scoutmaster position, but with everything, change is inevitable. This was probably the best move you made. I totally understand how hard it was to resign, I too have done the very act. Sometimes the differece between a good leader and a great leader is knowing when to quit and move on. In your case you will be helping more scouts and leaders be successful. This is truely an act of a GREAT LEADER. Just remember to listen to your wife too.

Good luck and happy scouting,

[scoutdad]

As a very involved parent and volunteer, I am disturbed by Frustrated Scoutmasters comments. We need more parents not less. I do not for one minute believe there is a mass conspiracy for parents to shortchange their child by asking Scoutmasters to bestow the rank of Eagle with little or no effort. I believe every parent wants the best for their child. That is to be commended not condemned. Instead of criticizing, which by the way is easy, why don't you try educating and involving the parents. They are on your side! We make an awesome team!

I have seen too many times when a child is advancing rapidly some well intentioned leader inevitability thinks the child must not be doing it right. They then slow the child down and make it very difficult to advance. Then the child becomes frustrated and quits. Is that what you want? Keep the success rate low. Take a look around. Scouting is on the decline.


Scouting is an awesome program and should be enjoyed by all. I think the more parents the better. Scouting builds strong families.

Frustrated Scoutmaster, please consider what you are saying in public. You are a registered leader with the BSA. Scouting like many other worthy and noble institutions has volunteers, people, humans that make mistakes.
Consider being part of the solution not part of the problem

[FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER]

ScoutDad:
You are truelly missing the point and I am totally offendeb by your remarks.
You have not walked in my shoes, nor do you know the problems that i have had with parents.
Regarding asking parents to be more involved, I have and the same couple of parents are involved. All the rest are SOOO Busy. Education of the parents have not helped, they only expect Eagle for their sons, NOTHING LESS.
You must be under the misguided impression that every boy should be an Eagle. whether he deserves it or not. You must think that every Troop should be an Eagle Factory. You put your time in and BANG your an Eagle Scout. This is not Cub Scouting where everyone advances together. Your comments sound exactly like what I heard from parents in my Troop. Remember, a boy has until he is age 18 to earn his Eagle. What is wrong with that? That is BSA policy and in literature. Is that wrong on a leader's part to tell a boy he has until he is 18. Some boys mature earlier than others so if I said this to a boy, am I wrong? Am I offending his and his parent's GOALS by saying this. I don't think so.
You think that we as Leaders do not want a boy to earn Hhis Eagle Rank, I said earn not given, but we do.
I think you need to re-read the Scout Oath and Law and understand what they mean. Also, I always went BSA Policies and Procedures. I did not alter or add to any requirements. I always went by requirement #2 when a boy was going for Star, Life, or Eagle. I think you need to look in your son's handbook to see what that says.
So in conclusion, I stuck by and adhered to all BSA policies, which the parent's did not want to hear about, and did not and have not diminished the Rank of Eagle.
If this discourging to some parents and boys, I am sorry. Eagle is not supposed to be easy to get.

Bob Klimas
Concord, N.C.

[spfadmin]

Dear Forum Participants,

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[CommissionerTim]

How fast can a boy earn Eagle has been the TOP ARGUEMENT for almost a century. The answer has been as simple as a boy being a boy and growing into a man. However, the problem is when we add everyone's opinion to the equation. National BSA made it simple to understand... simple rules that are written in the Boy Scout Handbook... The boy fulfills the all the requirements, then he is awarded each rank and the merit badges he has earned. It is NOT up to us to see if the boy has "LEARNED BY LIVING" the scout oath and law... it is only up to us as leaders and parents to instill in the boy what the scout oath and law is and it's meaning and hope and pray to God that these boys will live by them. As long as the boys fulfill the requirements, then the boys have every right to be awarded no matter what. Every boy is different, therefore every Eagle will be earned at a different pace. Yes there can be a time when you'll be awarding 20 scouts the Eagle rank within the same year... but don't ever think or feel that your troop is becoming an Eagle factory... you just happened to have a bunch of bright young men that are hard workers and focussed on a goal.

It's been said by many other scout leaders before; A boy can earn the Eagle rank within 2 1/2 years right after earning his Arrow of Light award and we should never be in their way if he wants to earn the Eagle rank. NO MATTER WHAT. Just make sure the boy fulfills each requirement is our top job discription. The sooner we get it through our thick heads, the sooner our country and world becomes a better place to live. That is the bottom line people.

[miscoutmom]

Hi Frustrated Scoutmaster,
As a newby <relatively speaking> in the Troop. I think that alot of parents to scouts have a very "Cub Scout" view on things. They think that if their child shows up, participates and has fun... the child gets a patch/pin/bead for their efforts. I was a Webelo leader for my son's den. I got all ambitious when my son moved up... I got a hold of the merit badge requirement book... and...ARG!... there is so much to do!!!!!. Total culture shock. Alot of these parents may not have taken the time to look into what the requirements are. They think its still the courtesy Cub Scout gimmie. Now, I'm not saying all are like that..... but speaking for myself. Holy cow! I'm looking at my child with Aspergers autism thinking, how are you ever going to get a merit badge?! Let alone make Eagle or anything. Thankfully he is half way through his Tenderfoot rank requ. now.
I'm sorry that your troop commitee and higher ups treated you and your wife so.
I've always liked the idea of a Pack type meeting. You sit the parents <that show up, of course> down and explain the rules of the game to them. Some may leave the troop/pack.. whatever... others will grasp it and run with it. Its the same with trying to get volunteers. I didn't plan on being a leader or a volunteer...but I was at every meeting to assist my son.. so, my Cubmaster convinced me to just "get the yellow shirt and get it over with.." <gggggg> :D

I wish you luck in Scouting. I am happy being a committee member now and watching my soon to be 11yr old son grow as a person.

Jenny
Troop 744 :cool:

[FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER]

Dear Miscoutmom:
My son too has Asberger but he stuck with Scouting and earned his Eagle Rank.
I did not use the Asberger as a crutch, but made him earn everything with no modifications. He ended up earning 55 Merit Badges. He took right to Scouting and he enjoyed every minute of it. He had some trouble with knots but we worked with him and he overcame his problem.
He is currently in the OA where he serves as the Vice Chief of the Chapter and he serves on the Lodge Cook Team.
He served in most Leadership Capacities in the Troop and did just fine with evedryone's help.
He just graduated from High School and is enrolled at Johnson and Wales University where he hopes to pursue a Degree in Culinary Art.
Stick in there and watch what your son will accomplish. You will be surprised.

Yours in Scouting,
Bob Klimas
Concord, N.C.

[ScoutmasterJerry]

Miscoutmom (and all)
A couple comments I'd like to chime in on....

First- Miscoutmom- I have a kid in my Troop that has Asbergers.. He is almost 1st class and we are not making any modifications for him.. treat him like all the rest of the kids and he is doing great. In fact I have known him since he was a Webelos Scout.. and have seen incredible growth in this kid.


Second- I love the comment you made; "I think that alot of parents to scouts have a very "Cub Scout" view on things."
This is dangerous for a Troop. Those parents need to be educated in how a Troop operates and that their son is no longer a Cubbie.
There are ways to do this so as not to ruffle feathers, one technique I use in my troop is that Parents do not camp. (unless they are ASMs)
This cuts the tie and allows the Scout to grow without being "Mommy coddeled" We tried a family camp once.. it was interesting to say the least. Needless to say I hope it is the last time we do that.
Other campouts.. no parents.
This gets them used to the fact that they are not Tiger partners anymore.
And they stay out of the way of the ASMs trying to teach and coach the Scouts. Parents are welcome to become leaders, but they need to go to training and learn how the Boy Scout program runs first.
Just a thought.

[FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER]

Jerry:

All I can say to your reply is "AMEN."
I did everything you did WITH the same results.
The only thing I did different afterwards was to have parents come on a Saturday night for dinner prepared by the boys and then a Campfire and then the parents went home. This worked out fine and the parents enjoyed being fed by their boys.
Your other comment to Miscoutmom is right on the mark. Been there, had that happen to me, but some parents never got the differnce between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts.
Jerry, I was harder on my son than other boys even though he has Asperger.
I did not force him though.
It is a pleasure to see what Asperger boys can achieve.
Miscoutmom, trust me, you will see how much he can achieve BUT do not treat him as a Cub Scout or use Asperger as a crutch.

Yours in Scouting,
Bob Klimas
Concord, N.C.

[Eagle85]

There are some excellent points and great wisdom in this thread. I would like to add a personal observation if I may. (Disclaimer: I'm an Eagle Scout and an in-for-life Scouter).

One of my current scouting roles is serving as a Cub Scout Leader in my sons' pack. I say "my sons' pack" because I constantly tell the parents and my fellow leaders that the pack belongs to the boys, not us. We adults are simply the ones who the boys have entrusted to take care of their scout unit until they can assume the leadership themselves.

Speaking as a Cub Scout leader I think a large part of the problem with cub parents having a difficult time transitioning to scout parents lies with us, the pack leadership. We sometimes forget that part of the transition from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts is the "adult education" for the parents. Unfortunately the troop leaders are the ones who suffer for this oversight.

This "adult education" has to start at the Tiger level (before the bad habits are formed) in order to be effective. Unfortunately, the average cub leader doesn't fully grasp the importance of the differences between pack vs troop operation until their son is about to cross over. By then it's too little, too late. BSA Training, POW-WOW's, and Roundtable help some in this regard but most of the cub level training (outside of WB) doesn't adequately address this particular area.

There's no simple solution to correcting this scenario. The only reason I bring this up here is to encourage veteran scouters to become more involved with the Cub Scout packs in their area. Yes, I know that UC's are usually vets but the UC can't be there all the time. Having a seasoned scouter involved in a leadership role within the pack, passing along their knowledge to the new leaders and being able to talk with parents informally (sometimes the best teaching method for this group) would go a looong way to helping out in this area.

Just my thoughts for what they're worth. Take care and keep scouting!

YIS,
Scouter Steve

[Nuts4Scouts]

This "adult education" has to start at the Tiger level (before the bad habits are formed) in order to be effective.

Just what kind of "adult education" & bad habits are you talking about here?

Cub Scouting IS all about family involvement, especially at the Tiger level.

[ScoutmasterJerry]

In regard to "Adult Education"...?? I know where Steve is going with that, but I think what he is trying to say is that we need to begin with Tiger Parents in developing them as Scout parents. It is True that Cub Scouting (especially at the Tiger Level) is centered on Family involvement.
After I left the job of Cub Master and became a Scoutmaster with the formation of a new Troop... I stayed involved with the pack as their Growth Coorindator. This way I could introduce the Pack to idea of Spiral learning.
This is a great way to introduce the transition (Starting at the Tiger level).

Lets take First aid for example. As a Tiger Cub we Search, Discover and Share... we take a field trip to a Fire station and learn a bit about First aid and responders...
Then we move up to Wolf and Bear, we discuss basic First Aid and introduce some real basic (Treat for shock etc) skills.
Webelos earn their Ready man and prepare to develop their skills even more.
On the Road to First Class as a Boy Scout, each Rank teaches more and more First Aid until they Earn the First Aid Merit Badge, then Life Saving, Emergency Prep, and Requirement #1 of each MB discusses First Aid.
This is Spiral Learning.
In that process.. we move the Scout to more responsibility and expect them to master skills without coaching and assistance.
If Parents understand this process from the get go.. they have an easier transition the first night they go to a Troop meeting and notice that no adults are applying splints and teaching basic First Aid skills. They see the practical application of the spiral learning system when the Patrol leader or Senior Patrol leader teaches a skill to a kid in the New Scout Patrol.

Bad Habits?? I think all bad habits are a result of mis information or lack of knowledge. That goes for unit leadership that allow it to continue and Parents that have not properly been informed.

The Spiral learning process subtly introduces the Scouts to skills and moves the Parent away from the process. I think this is a tactful way of accomplishing the Boy Led environment and also helping the Scout take control of his Scouting Career. (advancement)

Steve, I hope that I did not put [many] words in your mouth, but I think this is where you were headed.???

Nuts you are correct... Cubbies are for families, but that is where the process starts.

I have had many parents that get upset when a kid from the Patrol their son is in earns a rank and their son did not. They ask.. "why didn't my son get his.. in Cub Scouts they all advanced together."
Then I have to explain the process of Scouts earning rank at their own pace and taking responsibilty for their advancement.. typically their son just has not asked for a Scoutmaster conference... when I tell this to the Mom I always get a blank look as if I am supposed to sit the boy down instead of having him take a little initiative...

True story.. have a kid in the Troop that has been First Class for almost three years. Would not ask for a conference (and his Dad is a ASM)...
He finally asked and passed, but then did not show up prepared for his Board of Review. Still a First Class Scout... When he wants it... he will earn it.

Ok.. I rambled..sorry.
Gee I love Scouting!!!
Happy Trails gang!

[miscoutmom]

Hi Guys!
Thanks for the encouragement with my son. I tend to be his hardest critic and toughest person to deal with in the troop. I find myself going the other way, rather than babying him or codling him.. I'm yelling.. MAN UP! GET IN THE POOL!!! <that was Monday for the swim test for camp that he's not even going to> I teeter my son between the special needs world and the general functioning kids. I give him time to have to play catch up with his peers, but also give him time to be the high functing one for a change.
I do go to camp with him... I am still learning not to get in his Kool-Aid about things and let his patrol leaders..Lead. Old habits die hard.... I KNOW he can perform higher than he does, but he doesn't work well under presure.
He doesn't have any modified plan at this point. We are keeping it in our back pocket as a plan B. Jacob has Sotos Syndrome so his problems go beyond just being an Aspie. I just want him to be the best person he can be.
Anyhoo... I'm rambling.

Back on subject....
I found <as a leader> that I was used to and pretty much planned having all the boys advance at once. If one boy got his Readyman... they all did. I had one boy that was the exception, but he really didn't want to be there anyway and his parents didn't have any involvment at all. I managed to get him his Arrow by one pin. In my time in Scouting, I have 1 family that truly got the Cub Scout family involvement... Her boys started as Webelos with the Webelo 2's. OYE Vey.. so much catch up!!!... What was I going to do?
Mom and dad answered that question by holding scouts at their house too and catching their son and a family friend son up. Wonderful family!!! Always there for me... helpful and supportive. We both had culture shock moving up to the Troop level, but they are still right there 100%.

I think at the Troop level you are going to get the folks like me that "get on the payroll" <so to speak> :rolleyes:
Some become 100% kind of folks.... :)
some tread water :eek: ... and others run for their life.
I guess that is why in our pack we had 60 boys..and in our Troop we have 15.

I'm not sure what kind of adult/parent education would be helpful at the pack level for transition. I had it explained to me as a leader to prepare the boys and I still didn't "get it" until I started being at the meetings and getting to know the others there. They are the true teachers to me and I still have so much to learn.

Jenny
Troop 744 :cool:

[Nuts4Scouts]

Part of the reason for these types of problems is units (both Packs & Troops) not holding Parent Orientation. BSA recommends orientation for all new families and even has one ready made for Boy Scout Troops to use to help families transition from Cubs to Boy Scouting.

Orientation for New Boy Scout Parents -

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/supplemental/18-110/18-110.pdf

I have had many parents that get upset when a kid from the Patrol their son is in earns a rank and their son did not. They ask.. "why didn't my son get his.. in Cub Scouts they all advanced together."

This is not necessarily a parent training issue. This is a Pack & den leader training issue. Cub Scouts are not supposed to all advance together. Cub Scout requirements (not Webelos) are designed by BSA to be completed mainly at home with the family. The Scout & his family moves at their own pace throughout the year, with encouragement & some help from their den leaders. When requirements are completed there should be immediate recognition of that. Cubs who earn their rank award (or any award) should receive it at the very next Pack meeting, even if they are the only boy in the den who is receiving it. Cub awards should NEVER be held up until all of the boys can receive it at once.

If units would train their leaders, follow the program as laid out by BSA, & use the resources BSA has made available to them, many of these problems would not occur.

[FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER]

Good Topic Everyone!:)
Everything all of you are saying is right on the mark. Let's all keep the ball rolling and do what we know is right. In the end, we all have the same objective. That is making the BOYS better young men and citizens.
In reading all the responses to what I started a few months ago, I am very happy to see that we all have Scoutings best interest at heart.
I wish that we could form a District together.
Just my thoughts on this great topic.

Yours in Scouting,
Bob Klimas
Former Scoutmaster
(not Frustrated anymore):)
District Committee Member
Unit Commisioner

[ScoutmasterJerry]

Could not agree with you more Nuts....
Its all about Training leaders.
I just had a discussion with a leader from the Pack I am the Gorwoth Coordinator for regarding immediate recognition. They wanted to wait..
I told them it was not a good idea to wait and that they need to recognize immediatly after the Scout earns the award.
Their concern was hurting feelings.. I said that maybe it will motivate the others to work harder.

Anyway... I concer in total with your post.
Thanks for the great discussion.

[miscoutmom]

Very interesting.... I had never heard of that before while being a Webelo leader.... Granted, I became a leader after University was done.. and had to work on the University weekend when I was Web 2 leader... so I had on the job training only.
Our Pack would have a big pack meeting once a month and award patches and pins with the families there.
My boys generally did get the pin together since we would do whatever we were working on in the meetings. Sending home "homework" was a futule mission never to be done or brought back.
I imagine if you did a poll amoungst packs, you'd find such an array of ways things are done...
I'm still learning at the Troop level, so in my mind we are doing what everyone else is too.

Jenny
Troop 744 :cool:

[ScoutmasterJerry]

I think what you will find is that most Cub Scout Packs and Dens (not all)do the big One time show at the Pack meeting where they give out all the pins and badges. I think the immediate recognition gets lost in the "Giving out" the ranks badges at the Cubbie level. What I have seen is that the boys earn a rank and then have to wait till the rest of the den catches up.. or they wait till Blue and Gold in February and hand out everything there. This is wrong for the Scout. He should be recognized as soon as he earns the award.
In my Troop the Boys are recognized three times. First after they pass the Board of Review, we announce to the Troop his success. Then the following Monday at the meeting we award his rank Patch in front of the Troop. Then he is recognized again at the Court of Honor (held quarterly) with his parents. Then he gets the card and parent pin. You should not hold an award from a Scout just so the others can catch up.

Jenny you are right, you could take a poll and come up with a dozen or more different ways to do it, both at the Troop and Pack level... but like everything else you have to ask what is right and what is best for the Scouts.

I actually had an advancement chair tell be the reason they wait and give them all out together is because it is easier to shop for the badges that way. Easy. Hmmmmmm.... well make it easy then and never mind the hard work of the Scout that earned the badge. I almost fell out of my chair. [and our local Scout shop is not far either, about 20 minutes away].

[FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER]

Jerry:

What you said is exactly what I started to do when I was Scoutmaster.
I used to wait to our Troop Courts of Honor to give out the awards.
I realized that this was to long of a wait for the boys to be recognized.
I started to give out the all awards and rank advancements as soon as I received them from Council.
I also did what you did. First, I recognized the the boy or boys at a Troop Meeting after they passed their Board of Review. Second, after I received the award from Council, I awarded the Badge to the boy at the next meeting.
Finally, the boy was also formally recognized at the Troop Court of Honor.
I found out that waiting to formally award the Badge at a Court of Honor was too long of a wait.
As it states in the BSA Advancement Guidelines: (1) The Boy Scout Learns
(2) The boy Scout is tested (3) The Boy Scout is reviewed and (4) The Boy Scout is recognized.
In the BSA Advamcement Commitee Policies and Guidelines Booklet it also states that: "When the Board of Review has certified a boy's advancement, he deserves to receive recognition as soon as possible. this should be done at a ceremony a the next Troop meeting. the certificate for his new rank may be presented later at the next Court of Honor."
Jerry, you stated it in a way that everyone can understand.
I hope that everyone is doing it the way Jerry is. If not, we are doing a disservice to the boys and Scouting.

Your in Scouting,
Bob Klimas

[miscoutmom]

I'm glad that all of you are filling me in on common Troop level awarding. My son is kind of at a standstill, I really need to sit down myself. He isn't going to ask to do things <really he could care less about rank earning, he's just happy being with his friends and camping>
We've only been to one court of honor, this is where the newest members were welcomed in and recieved their Scout patch...and the adults recieved their pins for years served. <i recieved my 2yr pin.. :D >

This thread has been a really nice discussion!

Jenny
Troop 744:cool:

[ScoutmasterJerry]

Its been said before.....
"WE NEVER STOP LEARNING"

A great resource for you to learn more is to sit down with your Troops Advancement Chair and see the process in action.

Let your Son move at his own pace, do not worry about the rest of his patrol... some Scouts will advance quickly and some won't. They have plenty of time to enjoy Scouting.
Talk with the Scoutmaster about providing specific guidance to your son. Let him know the kinds of things that your Son is motivated by. If he could really care less about rank, then how about adventure and other cool stuff.

Does the Order of the Arrow fasinate him? This can be used to motivate. We had a couple Scouts that really could care less about rank, but when they found out you have to be 1st Class to be in the OA.. they got to work.
Things like this.. each Scout is motivated differently.. You know your kid better than the Scoutmaster... help him out. (Scoutmasters like that..hehe)

KEEP LEARNING!!!!

[pauldfischer]

A couple of thoughts that might help others who are also frustrated.
(I understand you are no longer frustrated).
What your original post referenced is a culture that existed in your troop that you were attempting to change. This is tough at best if everyone is supportive, and almost impossible if not. We in my troop at one time made the same change you attempted. How we did it was:
1. The Scoutmaster saw the need for the change and communicated it to the adult leadership. First the ASM, then the current PLC, and then to the committee. At each stage he was very careful to explain why and what of the changes he wanted to make and gain approval.
2. He communicated the changes that were being made to the scouts, and then via a parent meeting to the Parents. (At this point he was not seeking approval but rather informing)
3. The ASM staff was then trained in how and what was expected in a Scoutmaster conference (In our troop a ASM may perform all Scoutmaster conferences up to Eagle- although in practice life, and eagle are normally performed by the Scoutmaster. This training ensured that each Scoutmaster conference was held the same way with the same expectations of the boy. At the training a “Scout Master Conference bag” was presented to each ASM who completed it. This bag contained all the supplies that might be needed to complete a SMC for any rank. (By the way the training was held on a PLC night an lasted less than and hour.)
4. If for some reason a boy did not successfully complete a SMC, the reasons were clearly related to the boy and at the first opportunity to the parents. Either in persons or via e-mail or phone.

The results:
When a boy passes an SMC for just about any rank you can see the pride in his attitude. He has actually achieved and EARNED something. The pride a parent shows, and the congratulations that follow from the other boys, and even other parents on the achievement brings home just how important it was to truly earn something. Stepping up and helping younger scouts is something that our boys now do with pride and ease (They know the skills, and have the knowledge to do so).

As for the Eagle Scouts.
We have a dedicated ASM for Life to Eagle (we have a prerequisite that this ASM also be a eagle scout). His entire task is to ensure that the spirit and intent, as well as the steps the scout must take to achieve the rank is held and adhered to. When he judges that the scout is ready and has completed the all of the tasks etc. then he is ready for the SMC with the Scoutmaster. (In the last two years we have not had a life scout pass his first SCM for eagle on the first try). But when they do pass, and go on to achieve the rank. They know in their hearts, and head that they are truly and eagle scout in all manners. You can see the difference truly earning a rank makes

Paul Fischer
ASM

[miscoutmom]

Hey Jerry,
Between Jacob's Aspergers and ODD... he litterally couldn't care less about rank. The Scoutmaster and others don't leave him out of things. I did make it clear to the others that he won't ask to work on his book. He really just wants to be there <once we get there> ... Leaving the tv or computer is another story.
Talking about the OA... he doesn't care.... We've talked about Eagle, it gets brushed off. In his universe, if he can just see peers his age that accept him and go camping. That's Scouting to him. Others will get awards, he'll ask if he's getting one... but he doesn't want to put effort into anything unless its completely his idea.
I wish he did care more, but as high functioning a person he is, there are just some things I can't motivate with him or make him do. That is the way it is everywhere. Daycare, greyhound meet and greets and with the troop.
We are lucky to have a great bunch of adults with our Troop though, they are wonderful with him. I really consider myself fortunate to have him in this Troop.

Jenny
Troop 744 :cool:

[ScoutmasterJerry]

Jenny,
That is awesome, and if that is were your son is in Scouting.. great, let him do what he wants.
Rank is but a means to the end [Aims of Scouting] not the be all end all.
It is not manditory that a Scout ever advances.
The OA, as he gets older, this might interest him. But again, an optional part of Scouting.
You are blessed that you have a great group of Adults that work with your Son... that is what Scouting is all about.
Motivation.. that is something that will manifest itself and he'll get what he wants out of Scouting.

I spoke of the Scout I have in my Troop with Aspergers... he requires "it" to be his idea too.. so we make it his idea. He has been with the same group of Scouts since they were Bears, they know him and know how to work with him... Patience and understanding, something that your average 11 year olds lack. (in my opinion). We found that when they plan menus, he is the one that writes it down. It instantly becomes his.

Hope it all helps and more importantly that your son has the time of his life in Scouting!

[FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER]

Jenny and Jerry:

As a parent of a son with Asperger, I could not agree with you both.
I made Bobby make his own choices. If I was going to teach a Merit Class somewhere, I would ask Bobby if he wanted to go. If he said yes, OK, or if he said no, that was OK too. When we went camping, he always wanted to go.
He was not pushed toward his Rank Advancements. All I asked of him was to have a good time in Scouting.
Regarding the OA, he got into the OA before I did and he really has enjoyed it. Matter of fact, he said to me that he wants to run for Chapter Chief this year.
And last but not least, he did earn his Eagle Rank BUT he decided when he was ready.
Jenny, just watch what your son can do. It will click. Remember, that whatever he achieves and learns will serve him later in life. You may never know how something he learned in Scouting will come back to help him or some one else in the future.
I think from what you are saying about your Leaders that you are fortunate to have a great bunch.
JUST KEEP ON ENCOURING YOUR SON TO BE THE BEST AND DO THE BEST THAT HE CAN. That's all that we Aspergers Parents can ask for.

Yours in Scouting,
Bob Klimas
Concord, N.C.:)

[miscoutmom]

Thanks guys!!

As with anything in Jacob's life.... It all comes in his own time. Some of it happens with the boys. There have been plenty of times that I have tried to get him to do something, or achieve something and it took someone else in the troop or another boy doing something for him to do it. To me, that is what Scouting is giving Jacob. I am not able to push him to his fullest potential, he'll drag his feet... but in Scouting, everything is at his pace and mom <even a committee member mom> can't interfere with that. I love watching him do something I didn't know he could do... and his Troopmaster praising him for a job well done. At the end of the day, if we had no blow ups or melt downs... Life is good. He does more today than he did yesterday and I imagine he'll be a lower rank than his same age peers as they all age, but I'm not concerned with that. Bob, you are so right about "It will Click"..
Seems like you wait for them to do something and wait and wait.. and then CLICK.
I am very happy to hear and learn about other aspies in Troop life... and that its common place now to have special needs kids in Scouting.. Girls and Boys.

Hugs to all
Jenny
Troop 744 :cool:

[Back2Gilwell]

Dear Frustrated:

In skimming through the posts, it seems to me as a UC you have a unique opportunity to support units by stressing the importance of TRAINING to your units and the parents who want to be actively involved in a troop. It has been my experience that most new parents understandably confuse the methodology of cub scouts with that of boy scouts. I never let an opportunity pass to disabuse them of the notion and invite them to be involved in the program-- after training. Fortunately I have a good group of trained adults around me who are sold on the program. We are all singing off the same page of music, so to speak. Thus, they are aware that the boys are responsible for the program and their advancement. This is not to denigrate parental involvement; indeed, it is often indispensable for advancement-- rather, that energy is channeled to support the aims and methods of a "process oriented" (not "product oriented") program.