Getting the Chartered Organization Representative More Involved [Archive]

FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER

02-21-2007, 07:42 AM

Commissioner Tim:

Our COR was very active in our Troop. He was there as a representative of the Church. Unfortuntally, the parent's who served on the Committee had no idea as to the importance that COR played in the Troop operations. They just felt that he was there to be on the Committee, even though his son had his Eagle and aged out. They did not respect him but looked at him as a nobody.I tried to stress the importance that this man played, but the Committee did not listen.The COR resigned from the Committee when I stepped down as Scoutmaster.

The new COR went to his first Troop Committee meeting last night, I know the new COR and he is not going to take any nonsense from the parents. I hope that he makes it known that the COR has the power to remove and approve ALL volunteers for the Troop. I also know that COR is going to be very active with the Troop.

Now maybe, the Troop Committee and parent's will finally "get it."

Scouting Mom

02-21-2007, 02:24 PM

Where's the option of "Our COR has no idea who WE are"?

I know who he is... he didn't know that the organization he heads charters us or that he has some responsibility to us as a result. Our old COR left the organization, his secessor didn't know much about us, certainly not that they charter us.

When our CC finally tracked him down to sign the new leader forms, he explained and said, "sign here" and that was about it.

Nuts4Scouts

02-21-2007, 02:25 PM

Our COR attends Committee meetings when he can. He rarely attends Pack or Troop meetings.

While he is not "extremely active", he is there when we need him. Our CO is very good to both it's Pack & Troop.

No complaints!

Nuts4Scouts

02-21-2007, 02:34 PM

Most councils hold COR training at least once a year. It is very important that the head of your Charter Org makes sure the COR gets trained. Aside from being the CO's representative to their Scouting Units, the COR is also your CO's representative on the Council Committee & has a say in what your council does.

If the COR can't get to a regular council training, if he can at least look thru the course outline on the BSA National Web site he will get an idea of what is going on & what his responsibilities are.

http://www.scouting.org/relationships/04-113/index.html

CommissionerTim

02-21-2007, 03:20 PM

I am very sorry for not having the option of "Our COR does not have any idea who we are" available... I guess I didn't realize this was happening too. I did email the ScoutParents administrator to make this addition to the poll. I guess we'll see if it happens or not.

CommissionerTim

02-21-2007, 04:14 PM

When my brother-in-law and I started Troop 430 at our church, Susquehanna Valley Church of Christ, I was the COR until I was able to find someone that would do the job, so that I can do the UC job. The new COR's sons were also in scouts and he made it clear to me that he would only do this job because I asked, but he didn't want to be overly involved because he had done his time in scouting... he did attend the committee meetings at first because the troop and pack that we inherited from another church both had weak committees, so when I made the suggestion of combining the two committees to both CCs and the COR, the idea was sucked up in a heartbeat. I suggested that the COR attend the first few meetings to make sure this was going to be a good thing for both units and he did attend, but again without volunteering to do anything extra. So 2 years went by, and now we have a new COR that was one of the SA for the troop and the Senior Youth Group leader for the church, so this was actually a perfect fit. Our new COR has been active with the troop since we first chartered November 2003. He has also been very instrumental with our fundraisers and helping out at the district events for the troop and pack.

Finding the right leader to be the COR may take some time to do, and this is the biggest reason why when we're in a hurry to find someone to fill a position we end up picking anyone that will just simply say "OK" or we look to the foremost person within the organization ie. minister, preacher, or the one person that does most of the talking during the church services or committee meetings for the organization when in fact the best person for the COR is the one person that works with the youth the majority of the time. The reason for this match is because most of the youth this person works with will more than likely be in scouting too.

Matching the right leader to any position in scouting is very important and should be taken seriously... don't just fill a position just because you need someone in place on paper... take your time finding the perfect match, the right person is among you.

Also take a look at http://www.scouting.org/relationships/04-113/index.html Training the COR.

ScoutmasterJerry

03-01-2007, 03:41 PM

This is an interesting topic and the poll is not to encouraging.
The Chartered Organization and its representative are an important part of the life of your unit.
If you do not know who they are or they have no idea who you are than there is no relationship there.
As a Scoutmaster, I understand that our COR will not participate in many of our events, campouts etc, but we do see him at Committee meetings, Courts of Honor, and various other "in town" events.
We are chartered by a Knights of Columbus Council. They have a Youth Committee and within that is the Scouting program.

Another question that may lead to another thread....
Who is signing your Adult leader Applications? There is a block for the COR to sign each application.
And second to that... who is doing the background checks on your Prospective Adult leaders? Our Chartered Organization does a background check on every applicant. The Councils do not do checks, so who is checking your leaders.
If you are not checking.... you are setting yourself up for trouble one day. God forbid... but you may be.
We had an adult (dad) that we found out was a convicted Felon.. We did not process his application and he is not a Leader.

The Chartered Partner can do many things for your unit and likewise the unit can do a lot for the CO.
You must develop a bond with the COR and the Chartered Partner. I know of some units that have a "Makeshift" Chartered Partner.. "The Friends of....."
I have found that once those parents that started the partnership leave... so does the unit. I would stick to institutions, Churches, Civic groups like the American Legion or VFW, Elks etc... there is stability in those organizations and an interest in keeping youth programs alive. That an Scouting offers a Values based program that is in line with many Civic groups and Church functions.

Very interesting to see that there are units that have no idea who they are or CO's that have no idea who the unit is... this is wrong and leaving out an important part of the process... applications alone can not be valid without the CO's envolvement.

Nuts4Scouts

03-01-2007, 06:50 PM

The Councils do not do checks, so who is checking your leaders.

Yes, Councils are, and have been for a number of years now. That is the whole point of including your SS # on the Adult Application.

ScoutmasterJerry

03-02-2007, 01:26 PM

hmmmmmm....
Not so fast my friend.. I don't think they check everyone. The fellow I spoke of (the felon) turned in an application with another unit.. and was accepted. I went down to the Council office and had him removed when his boy came up to our Troop. He said he was already a registered Adult (with the Pack) and that he wanted to be registered in the Troop. I confirmed that he was registered with the Pack and the Council had him in the Scoutnet as an Assistant Den Leader. He is no longer with the Pack and is a great Dad with the Troop, but our Chartered Organization will not allow him to be a leader because of his record, which I support.
I think some councils may do checks or at least random checks, but as for ours, I am having a hard time believing they check them all. I hope they check them all, and I want them to check them all, but like the great staffer downtown said.. that should be done before we get it. [impling it is the CO's responsibility]

So I did some homework.. here are the responsibilities of the CO:
By receiving a charter from the Boy Scouts of America, the chartered organization agrees to:
1. Conduct Scouting in accordance with its own policies and guidelines as well as those of the BSA.
2. Include Scouting as part of its overall program for youth and families.
3. Appoint a chartered organization representative who is a member of the organization and will represent it to the Scouting district and council, serving as a voting member of each.
4. Select a unit committee of parents and members of the organization who will screen and select unit leaders who meet the organization's leadership standards as well as the BSA's standards.
5. Provide adequate and secure facilities for Scouting units to meet on a regular schedule with time and place reserved.
6. Encourage the units to participate in outdoor experiences

As stated, I am in aggreement with you.. I think that background checks need to happen at the Council level. But I do believe, and to stay on topic of Chartered Organizations, the CO needs to be engaged in the unit and has a major role in selecting and screening the Leaders (particularly the Committee).

Great discussion!

CommissionerTim

03-02-2007, 04:04 PM

Wow... I had a feeling this would be a hot topic, but didin't really know to what degree.

Our council does do background checks on EVERY volunteer, which relieves the stress from the COR. However, the charter agreement does state that the CO has the responsibility to screen it's volunteers. So if the COs do their job, then send the application to the council and they double check the applicant, then BSA would be a safer organization to be part of.

However, not every CO will screen or has the means to screen their volunteers, nor does all of the councils. For some of the councils, they have to pay for the background checks, and others do not. Why is this? It has to do with the policies of the state and local police agencies... for the most part, these police agencies will not charge non-profit agencies for a background check, but some will. These policies are regulated by the state government... if your state government does not have any policies in place to regulate the state and local police agencies on how much to charge, then you need to make your voice heard and contact your congressperson... and if your state does have policies in place but they are unreasonable, again contact your congressperson and get them to make the changes necessary.

Background checks are a necessary evil and must be done. The applications we now have are new... if a volunteer refuses to give his/her SS#, DOB and drivers license along with their full name, then we need to refuse to allow them to be a volunteer.

Easier said than done when it comes to cub scouting... specifically at the Tiger Rank. Tiger scouts are required to have their (what we now call "partner") parent with them the entire time. So what do you do when the partner of a boy happens to not clear the background check? There's many ways to solve this problem, but you need to do it without embarrassing anyone. First thing you need to do as a Den Leader or Cubmaster is inform your council executive of the situation and he/she will take care of it from there.

Remember, any situation that has to do with anyone's felony record or abuse of a child... the council executive MUST be the first call you make and he/she will take care of the situation for you. That's what they are paid to do. We as volunteers should never get in the middle of situations like this, but rather report them to our council executive when it happens... and immediately too!!!

ScoutmasterJerry

03-02-2007, 06:46 PM

Agreed..
See I knew see saw eye to eye on this..
We are fortunate that our CO does have the means, and I am sure the Council is doing a great job. God knows they work hard, and I appreciate everything they do. But I can also see the overwhelming task it must be.
Thanks for the discussion... good stuff.
And I suppose the message here is that we should encourage our CO's to do background checks. It certainly does not hurt if we do a preliminary Q&A with the prospective leader.

Nuts4Scouts

03-03-2007, 03:17 AM

Yes, the CO does have a responsibility to check out their volunteers. The adult application asks for references & background information, & those should be checked before the CO accepts the volunteer.

However, as part of BSA's push for better youth protection, background checks for all new leaders became required as of April, 2003.

From the BSA National Web site -

2002 Annual Report -
Computer technologies were given an increasing role in youth protection in 2002. In the fall, the BSA adopted a policy requiring an Internet-based criminal background check on all new adult volunteers for traditional programs. The new policy was to be implemented nationwide by the spring of 2003.

BSA Press Release from March, 2003 -
Boy Scouts of America Implements Expanded Volunteer Screening System
The Boy Scouts of America has announced the selection of a state-of-the-art Internet-based criminal background checking system for its adult volunteers and leaders. The implementation of this new system provides local councils of the BSA with the capability of checking new volunteer applicants against state and national databases.

After an exhaustive search process, the BSA chose the ChoicePoint company's background checking system called VolunteerSelect. The Boy Scouts of America has been involved in updating and improving its youth protection guidelines and regulations on a consistent basis for decades.

"The safety of our youth has always been, and always will be, the paramount concern for the Boy Scouts of America," said Roy L. Williams, Chief Scout Executive. "We continually seek new ways to improve our youth protection methods and procedures because we believe in the critical importance of protecting our youth from any form of abuse. The selection of this program, VolunteerSelect, is further evidence of how seriously we take youth protection and safety."

The BSA is nationally recognized as having one of the most effective youth protection processes, involving youth instruction, parental commitment, and background/reference checks. Beginning in 1972, the BSA's standards for leadership were developed as a guideline for screening adult volunteers. VolunteerSelect is the latest step, enabling the more than 300 local councils to include national criminal, state *** offender, and county criminal screening.

If a match is found on a volunteer applicant, he or she will be sent a copy of the information and can dispute the findings. The council and the organization that sponsors the applicant's unit will then determine how to proceed, based upon BSA procedures.

The Boy Scouts of America is composed of 1.3 million volunteers working together for the sole purpose of helping more than 5 million youth succeed in life. The Boy Scouts of America's 93-year history is a testament to the enduring values of the Scouting program.

If your Council is not performing background checks on all new volunteers, they should be. Contact your Council's SE and ask them why they are not following BSA National requirements.

ScoutmasterJerry

03-09-2007, 10:46 AM

Just a follow up...
Our Council does a great job.. don't get me wrong. I spoke with some folks down at the office, my "example" must have slipped thru the cracks..
So I dug a bit further..He was registered at all. He appeared in the Computer as a POC (Parent) when they queried his name.
So resting better now.
My apologies if I ruffled feathers.. but hey it is a great discussion and at the end of the day.. we need to make sure we are providing that safe environment for the Scouts.

A J Mako

03-09-2007, 12:16 PM

Basically, this person IS the most important person of the unit... Without this person, there would be no unit.

Tim,
The COR also has an important role to play in the council and district. The COR, being a respresentative of an organization that owns the units, has a pretty good reason to make sure the council and district are doing what they are supposed to do to support the units. They make sure the district is focused on the units, and they have the leverage to change things if it isn't.

Perhaps another poll is needed, asking whether your COR is also involved in the district. I've been looking over the forums here and I notice that in a few cases where parents or leaders talked about dysfunctional units or problems with getting support, the first answer given is usually "talk to your DE." That's the wrong answer. The DE doesn't run the district, and there isn't enough time in the day for the DE to troubleshoot and handle every problem that comes along.

If the unit needs help, and they aren't getting it from the council or district, the person to talk to is the COR. That's why you want a good relationship between your unit and your CO and an active COR. If your unit doesn't have a Unit Commissioner and you need one, the COR is the guy who should be going to the district and asking "where's our support?" It's part of the charter agreement--the council and district promises to provide support.

CommissionerTim

03-09-2007, 04:04 PM

If the unit needs help, and they aren't getting it from the council or district, the person to talk to is the COR. That's why you want a good relationship between your unit and your CO and an active COR. If your unit doesn't have a Unit Commissioner and you need one, the COR is the guy who should be going to the district and asking "where's our support?" It's part of the charter agreement--the council and district promises to provide support.

Excellent point!!! The majority of districts around the nation are lacking Unit Commissioners - The support the district and council provides to the units. Another way the COR can help is by letting the District Commissioner know if there is anyone within the organization that would be a great commissioner and give the DC his/her contact info.

Commissioners are district and council leaders who help Scout units succeed. They coach and consult with adult leaders of Cub Scout packs, Boy Scout troops, and Venturing crews. Commissioners help maintain the standards of the Boy Scouts of America. They also oversee the unit charter renewal plan so that each unit reregisters on time with an optimum number of youth and adult members. - www.scouting.org (http://www.scouting.org)

A J Mako

03-10-2007, 12:22 PM

Excellent point!!! The majority of districts around the nation are lacking Unit Commissioners - The support the district and council provides to the units. Another way the COR can help is by letting the District Commissioner know if there is anyone within the organization that would be a great commissioner and give the DC his/her contact info.

Well, the COR can help simply by becoming involved on the district committee. Say your district has 50 units and 40 chartering organizations. If it's like mine you might have 3, at the most 4, COR's active on the district committee. That means there are 36 or 37 people out there the district is supposed to be able to count on they can't. It means most of the district operating committees are made up of the people who are prime candidates for commissioners. People who are experienced unit Scouters looking to move on to a new challenge.

If you can get the number of COR's actively involved up to 10, it should reduce the workload on all those folks--at least you won't have one guy who runs the Cub Scout side of Roundtable, the district Pinewood Derby, and Cub Scout Day camp. Automatically you've got a few more people who can be commissioners. Up the number of active COR's to 15 or 20 and you should have enough active, dedicated people for a full commissioner corps.

As long as the COR is viewed as a throw-away position, just a name on the charter with no responsibilities, districts and even councils won't operate to their full potential. And I might add, there will also tend to be a them vs us attitude toward the district and council in the units.

FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER

03-11-2007, 09:39 AM

Commissioner Tim and A J Mako:

RIGHT ON!
You two could not have summarized it better.
As a Unit Commisioner, everthing you two have said I echo completely.
I hope that all CORs, UCs, CCs, and Scoutmasters read your comments and take heed and follow your ADVICE.
IF we all do as you two stated in your posts, we ALL can make Scouting even more successful than it is now.

Bob Klimas
Unit Commissioner
Central NC Council

COR

03-12-2007, 08:39 PM

A J, I have read your stuff in other places. :)

While it is true that the district and council could reach out to COR's just as easily...many district and council volunteers operate following a rather unfortunate "Cost/Benefit Analysis" when it comes to reaching out to COR's. They mistakenly believe that the "cost" of getting more COR's involved outweighs the "benefit" the district/council receives in return.

Encourage the COR to become more involved, but make sure he or she does not forget his or her BSA position code and primary responsibilities; to help (your) units to be successful and to provide coordination between the CO and Scouting.

The risk of having a COR that is also highly involved in the District/Council is that he or she may be assimilated into the District/Council. The COR may no longer represent the CO to the District/Council, but begins to represent the District/Council to the CO.

This happened in our CO. The CO replaced the COR. The former COR’s long-time District/Council associates were not amused. The replacement COR is not having a wonderful time either. :eek:

dazed and confused

03-12-2007, 11:32 PM

I didn't realize that CORs were actually involved in the troop. We belong to a troop in the Northeast, predominantly Catholic area. Our CO is a Catholic church, but the priest who is our COR has nothing to do with us. The church provides a meeting space and does their own background checks (we also have to do another backround check through council because the church won't share theirs).

This has led to one Big problem. All of the parents in leadership are Catholic and attend this church. Because the priest only knows these parents, they have blocked other parents who have wanted to be involved in a leadership capacity. We have been told that the priest won't have anything to do with us because he doesn't know us, and that because they do, they can get things done (ie, move paperwork).

What's a parent to do??? :(

FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER

03-13-2007, 08:47 AM

Dazed and Confused::confused:

Most Catholic churches have what is called a Parish Pastoral Council which is made up of lay members of the Church. As a Catholic myself, I find it hard to believe that a priest would be the COR. Priests have many more Pastroral activities to attend to and they should delegate the COR to a parishioner.
BUT, on the other hand. since the Church is the sponsoring organization, they do have the right to determine who sits on the Board.
As regards to background checks, the Church is to supposed to follow BSA guidelines in doing Background Checks and the Adult Applications are to be forwarded to the Local Council for the appropriate background checks.
Another avenue to look at is to go to the NCCA-bsa.org website. This is the National Council on Catholic Scouting website. You might be able to find more info there.
Jerry, do you have any more to add to this concern? How can the Knights of Columbus help here?

FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER

03-13-2007, 09:06 AM

Dear COR:

Involvent of the COR in the District is a two way street.
First, the COR is a member of the District Board. This means he is supposed to attend District Meetings and be a voting member. This way the CO is made aware of what is going on in the District/Council and the unit will not feel isolated as to what is going on. He can relay back to his unit any new changes in policies that BSA has adopted. Also, he does not have to be so involved that he loses focus on his CO.
Second, the COR, as a member of the District Committee, can express concerns that his unit having. He can get input from the DE, District Chairman, and other District Members. This should should prompt a call to the Unit Commissioner for that Unit that a potential problem might be occuring. By bringing this concern to the District Committee, the District Committee can react in a fast and hopefully positive manner. This way the CO has a positive feel for what the District can do.
Don't feel that if you serve on a District Board, you are going to be "swallowed up by the Distrit."
Just my thought as a District Committee Member and a Unit Commissioner

Bob Klimas
District Committee Member
Unit Commissioner
Concord, N.C.
Central N.C. Council

A J Mako

03-13-2007, 11:34 AM

The BSA uses a three-legged stool as a model of the chartering concept. If I remember it correctly one leg is the district, another is the council, and the third is the chartering organization. These three legs support the Scouts (that'd be the seat). It works, sort of.

There's a better model. For lack of a better analogy, I call it the washing machine model. Specifically, a top-loading, circular agitating washing machine. The machine itself is Scouting. The whole kit and kabootle. We fill the machine with water--that's all the district and council operations. We add in some detergent--that would be the units. And we toss in the clothes we want washed--the youth, of course. For the machine to do its job, there has to be some agitation. Scouting must do something before we have an impact on the youth.

In this case the agitation isn't just in one direction. The agitation may be mostly counter-clockwise, but there's plenty of clockwise motion to make sure the water, detergent and clothing gets mixed up real good and the clothes come out clean. The two positions in Scouting that create this agitation are the COR and the UC. Both must participate in the dance for the work to be successful.

The UC is a representative of the district who becomes a friend of the unit, helping the unit be as successful as they can be. Two-way movement, mostly from the district to the unit, but also from the unit to the district. The UC brings information, training, and access to district resources to the unit. As the unit's friend, he or she observes and takes back to the district a picture of the health of Scouting in that unit.

The COR is a representative of the chartering organization, the operator of the unit, whose interest is in providing a good, successful Scouting program. Two-way movement, mostly from the unit to the district, but also from the district to the unit. The COR brings vision, focus, and yes, their own special interest in the Scouts in their program to the district. Because our operating philosophy is that Scouting is run by the people who provide it, the COR is the district/council, and they bring the unit the ability to exist and the facilities to do their work.

If one of these two positions is dormant, the agitation is weak and may not agitate at all. The water and detergent mix, but not completely. The clothes may come out cleaner, but not as clean as we would want.

A J Mako

03-13-2007, 12:09 PM

Our CO is a Catholic church, but the priest who is our COR has nothing to do with us. The church provides a meeting space and does their own background checks (we also have to do another backround check through council because the church won't share theirs).

It's not unusual for the Institutional Head (IH) to also be the Charter Organization Representative (COR). It's not an optimal situation, but it happens. The priest may be very interested in Scouting and the unit, but just doesn't have the time to be both pastor and COR. Someone probably told him a Scout unit can basically run itself and the COR position is just something the BSA threw in there for oversight. "The COR doesn't really do anything, you just have to have a name there."

All of the parents in leadership are Catholic and attend this church. Because the priest only knows these parents, they have blocked other parents who have wanted to be involved in a leadership capacity. We have been told that the priest won't have anything to do with us because he doesn't know us, and that because they do, they can get things done (ie, move paperwork).

This is a problem, and unfortunately there's not a lot that can be done that won't rock the boat quite a bit more than anyone would like. If you have an interest in being involved in leadership of the unit, fill out an application. I wouldn't ask if your help is needed--it is no matter what anyone says. Just fill out an application, leave the position code blank, make sure everything is correct and proper and give the application to the committee chair.

If the CC refuses to approve the application ask them why. When they tell you it's because the priest won't have anything to do with you because he doesn't know you, tell the CC you'd be glad to meet with him. If the CC still refuses, or it's clear they haven't processed the application, set up your own meeting with the COR/IH. Make it short: "My son is in the troop, I was interested in being a leader, I know you have to approve the application, and I just thought you should know who I am before you sign anything." Be everything the Scout Law says a Scout should be. It might get a little dicey when it's discovered the priest doesn't know anything about your application, but don't accuse anyone of anything. Chances are you'll leave the meeting with a pretty good feeling. You might even leave with a new friend (and therefore won't have much trouble getting things done).

I should warn you that you may have to repair your relationship with the CC. You may find that there's a culture of exclusivity in the unit--"we really only want people from our church in our troop"--in which case you'd probably be happier in another unit. That sort of attitude probably doesn't come from the priest, but if you don't belong to the church you won't be able to change it. As far as convincing the priest he needs a dedicated COR, that's something the district or a group of parents in the parish may have to do.

CommissionerTim

03-13-2007, 02:10 PM

If the CC refuses to approve the application ask them why. When they tell you it's because the priest won't have anything to do with you because he doesn't know you, tell the CC you'd be glad to meet with him. If the CC still refuses, or it's clear they haven't processed the application, set up your own meeting with the COR/IH. Make it short: "My son is in the troop, I was interested in being a leader, I know you have to approve the application, and I just thought you should know who I am before you sign anything." Be everything the Scout Law says a Scout should be. It might get a little dicey when it's discovered the priest doesn't know anything about your application, but don't accuse anyone of anything. Chances are you'll leave the meeting with a pretty good feeling. You might even leave with a new friend (and therefore won't have much trouble getting things done).

I should warn you that you may have to repair your relationship with the CC. You may find that there's a culture of exclusivity in the unit--"we really only want people from our church in our troop"--in which case you'd probably be happier in another unit. That sort of attitude probably doesn't come from the priest, but if you don't belong to the church you won't be able to change it. As far as convincing the priest he needs a dedicated COR, that's something the district or a group of parents in the parish may have to do.

Thanks AJ... I couldn't have said it better myself... if this was a perfect world, we wouldn't have situations like these to work through. Unfortunately, every organization has their own little political cliques we all have to groom and rub them the right way in order to get "things" done.

This is also one of the reasons why the Unit Commissioners are so valuable to the unit. If a parent or leader finds themselves in a stickey situation, then let the UC take care of "things" for you.

Nuts4Scouts

03-13-2007, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by dazed and confused
All of the parents in leadership are Catholic and attend this church. Because the priest only knows these parents, they have blocked other parents who have wanted to be involved in a leadership capacity. We have been told that the priest won't have anything to do with us because he doesn't know us, and that because they do, they can get things done (ie, move paperwork).

"They" have blocked other parents. "They" have told you the priest will not have anything to do with you. "They" know the priest and can get things done.

Sounds like the problem might be with "They" instead of with the priest.

Most Catholic Parishes are very inclusive. The schools take non-Catholic children. The Church has outreach groups. Most parishes will help any member of their community who need it, regardless of their religion.

On the other hand, as the Charter Organization, the Scouting Unit belongs to them & is their youth group. They are free to impose any membership restrictions they wish, as long as it does not affect the quality of the BSA program(s) delivered.

How did the non-parishioners get recruited into the Troop? Do "They" let incoming Webelos families know their help is not wanted up front? How well is the Troop run & is there a shortage of volunteers?

I think I would try what AJ suggests. If the problem truly is that the Pastor does not know you, then making an appointment to sit down & talk to him might be the answer.

If "They" are determined to run the Troop as "Their" own little fiefdom, then you (& all of the non-parishioners) might be better off looking for a different Troop.

BTW - The requirement for background checks, & Virtus Youth Protection Training, comes from the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, not your individual parish, & is in addition to that required by BSA.

COR

03-13-2007, 06:12 PM

The longer the board was down today, the longer I had to write.:p

I didn't realize that CORs were actually involved in the troop.
Idealistically, I do not see how a COR cannot be involved in the unit, given all the COR is supposed to do!

Realistically, I think that many COR's have little to do with the units they are responsible for, and less to do with the Council and District.

I think many a Council and District prefers it that way, heh.

The following is from the BSA publication The Chartered Organization Representative (No. 33118D)

Your COR is the head of the "Scouting department" in your organization and is responsible for the success of its units.

Your COR represents your organization as a voting member of the BSA local council.

Your COR is a voting member of the district committee where your chartered organization is located.

Some of the COR's tasks are to

help the unit Chairperson
help recruit the right leaders
encourage unit leaders and committee members to take training
promote well-planned unit programs
serve as liaison between your units and your organization
organize enough units
promote the recruiting of new members
see that members graduate from one program phase to the next
assist with unit charter renewal
suggest good turns for your organization
encourage unit committee meetings
keep chartered organization leaders informed about the units
encourage active outdoor unit and sports programs
emphasize advancement and youth recognition
bring District help and promote its use
use approved unit finance policies
encourage recognition of leaders
cultivate resources to support your organization's units
represent your organization on the Council and District levels

You can view "Training the Chartered Organization Representative" @ www.scouting.org/relationships/04-113.html

What's a parent to do? Tough question. If the COR is also the Institutional Head (IH), then there is little that you as a parent can do. Communication is usually the weak point, tho. I would make it a point to introduce myself to the COR, no matter what "they" say (people like that often have some bizzare agenda).
Dear COR:

Don't feel that if you serve on a District Board, you are going to be "swallowed up by the Distrit."
Just my thought as a District Committee Member and a Unit Commissioner

I appreciate your thoughts as a UC. Have you heard the rumor that the Commissioner Corp is “broken?” In this Region, the number of registered Unit Commissioners is down 13% from last year, and down 14.7% from...oops, attempted hijack, never mind. :D

I appreciate your thoughts as a member of committee. Feedback is a gift, thank you sir! I understand how members of District committees (position code 75, 79, etc.) feel about the pesky CORs around here. Luckily, I have not been "swallowed up by the Distrit." I am one COR who understands my position and responsibilities. No matter my position on the District committee, my primary responsibility is to the chartered organization that put me there. My position code is CR. I dance with the one that brung me.:D

I have observed CORs who are assimilated into the District. I have observed CORs who represent the District to the CO, rather than the CO to the District. It is easy to be lured into that role. Around here, it is fairly easy to recognize when CORs are absorbed by committees; look at the patch on their left arm. IMHO, as long as you are COR, if your patch changes from khaki to a brighter color you may have lost your sense of “place.” Control of the Council belongs to the chartered organizations, not to the committees.

Just my thought as a Chartered Organization Representative and District Committee Member. Void if prohibited by sectarian viewpoint. Your mileage may vary. Do not operate heavy machinery while under the influence of this post.
The BSA uses a three-legged stool as a model of the chartering concept. If I remember it correctly one leg is the district, another is the council, and the third is the chartering organization. These three legs support the Scouts (that'd be the seat).
Very close, sir. The BSA uses a three-legged stool to model the role of the COR. The three legs represent the unit, the chartered organization, and the Boy Scout council and its districts. The COR is the piece that makes the stool work (that'd be the seat). (http://www.scouting.org/relationships/04-113/04.html)

I love this model. Doesn’t the model suggest that the COR has to deal with…um...what’s a gentle euphuism for the closest part of a person to the seat of a stool? :D

There is also a “pyramid” model with the Boy at the tip of the pyramid. (http://www.scouting.org/relationships/04-113/02.html)

dazed and confused

03-13-2007, 11:57 PM

A J Mako

03-14-2007, 11:22 AM

Very close, sir. The BSA uses a three-legged stool to model the role of the COR. The three legs represent the unit, the chartered organization, and the Boy Scout council and its districts. The COR is the piece that makes the stool work (that'd be the seat). (http://www.scouting.org/relationships/04-113/04.html)

Thanks, I couldn't remember exactly how it went, and I was too lazy to dig through resources or do a search. Personally, I still prefer the washing machine model--there's more action to it, and it emphasizes the interconnectedness of it all.

But yes, the three-legged stool model does stress the biggest, most important role of the COR. None of the legs will escape and go off on their own as long as you're sitting on them. ;)

Nuts4Scouts

03-14-2007, 03:51 PM

D&C - How sad for the Troop. It is a shame what some adults will do to a great program!

Good luck with your new Troop!

Scouting Mom

03-16-2007, 09:26 PM

Thanks for all of the info and advice.

We (as a family) realized that the problem was insurmountable for us. Unfortunately, the troop is down to just the boys of the leaders and is actually being run by the leaders not the boys.

Seems the problem wasn't the COR, but the current leaders. Actually has nothing to do with faith, just a control issue. They want the troop run the way it is run and don't want new ideas. The COR is content to let them do what they want. We didn't pick up on that when my son moved up from Webelos last year. Fortunately there is another troop in the area which is most definitely boy led. The son of this COR is actually part of the troop, so the COR has a vested interest in the troop. There are many older scouts who are interested in teaching the younger. So we are moving on. No hard feelings, just very different ideas about what Scouting should be. :cool:Wow, this sounds just like the troop that our pack traditionally moves into. I heard from a parent with boys in both the troop and pack a lot of the same things. The leaders run things, the boys go outside and toss around a ball because there is nothing for them to do. Their last camping trip, the SM's son didn't even go, because he was that uninterested. It also happens to be a Catholic Church as CO, but I'm sure that is strictly a coincidence, unless we are talking about the same troop. (you aren't in Maryland by chance are you?) There also happens to be another troop not far away that all of our Webelos this year decided they'd rather crossover into, rather than the one we traditionally move to. The next two years worth of Webelos are likely to do the same which will practically kill the nearer troop, if they don't shape up.

But I can tell you that as a whole, the Catholic Church is extremely supportive of scouting. As someone else said, it is likely not the Church or the pastor that is the roadblock, but the others in the leadership of the troop that are the problem. It may be a communication issue, but rarely does the Catholic Church exclude anyone from youth or community activities, regardless of their religious affiliation. I realize you have decided to move on, but if you DO want to pursue it, or there are others you know who do, if talking to the pastor/COR doesn't get you anywhere, the Catholic Church has an office on scouting, whose whole purpose is to promote boy and girl scouting in the church setting. Check with the local archdiocese.

FRUSTRATED SCOUTMASTER

03-17-2007, 07:44 AM

Dear Scouting Mom:

You are right about the Catholoc Church and Scouting. There is another resource fpr information about Scouting in the Catholic Church. It is the NCCS website, the National Catholic Council on Scouting. If anyone is interested, it gives all the information you need about Scouting in the Catholic Church.
Scoutmaster Jerry, if you have not been to the site, it tells about the new initiative between the K of C and Scouting.
Just my thoughts as another Catholic who is disappointed to hear what has happened to D and C.

Bob Klimas
Concord, N.C.

1st Mate

03-25-2007, 06:11 PM

This is another good reason for getting more parents involved. When any committee position isn't as strong as it needs to be, then having a talent pool to go to is very important.

Again I am uncomfrotable with the purpose of this thread when comapred to the goals of this website and intiative.

Adults play many roles in scouting beides being program leaders like Den leaders or Scoutmasters. Charter Organization Representative (CR) is a good example. A trained and active CR gain bring many resource and opportunities not only to their troop but to the scouting community in general. If you had more parents involved in the unit then you could have a huge impact in the selection of a quality CR.

Fair Winds and Following Seas,
1st Mate

A J Mako

03-26-2007, 12:12 PM

Again I am uncomfrotable with the purpose of this thread when comapred to the goals of this website and intiative.

I happen to agree that this particular thread doesn't appear to be appropriate to the goals of ScoutParents, however, I would point out that a parent was encouraged to speak up, ask a question, and she and her son(s) will likely have a better Scouting experience as a result.

A forum provided for Scout leaders and parents won't be able to avoid discussing problems that, at first glance, appear to have nothing to do with encouraging parents to be more involved. A problem at the council or district level impacts the unit whether the unit believes it or not. Anything that impacts the unit also impacts the Scouts and their parents.

If our goal is to encourage Scout parents to get involved, then avoiding talking about the problems we have they might be able to help solve is like the old "bait and switch" sales tactic.

CommissionerTim

03-26-2007, 09:38 PM

I love the responses all of you have brought forth and I thank all of you for your opinion... please keep in mind that without the tough questions being asked and tough opinions responding, then we would not have a forum. I've ask some real tough questions that have affected troops, pack, and crews nationwide. The spirit of this forum is just exactly what we are doing and we should never stop because someone feels uncomfortable with the topic. These are real issues with real problems and should be examined with serious thought and be part of the discussions.

Yes, I agree the new parent(s) will probably find these issues uncomfortable and may give them a bad taste, but I don't see this happening with the majority of the new parents. I feel most people are educated enough to understand what the topic of discussion is about and will either respond to it or take the general idea back to their unit and try to make some changes on their own... either way we are doing a great service to our scouters around the world by having the forums available.

1st Mate

03-26-2007, 09:59 PM

Having spent quite a while in retail and in advertising I am pretty familiar with what bait and switch really is.

If I advertise a product at special price and when you come to get it I say that product is all gone now but we can give you this product instead (but at a higher price)...THAT is bait and switch. If I advertise a product and when the customer gets there finds out that I don't have that product and have nothing to offer...well that's just being a bad business person.

BUT if I advertise a product and when the customer gets there I have the product just as I promised... Then I have earned their business.

If a scout and his family come to a unit and expect to see the scouting program and it's not there then shame on the leaders of THAT unit. They have not earned that family's membership. Especially if they promised scouting and then offered an inferior product regardless of cost. If that sounds like a unit you know I guarantee they are either untrained or uninterested in serving the youth of the community. Those people need to change or be changed and that is the Charter Organization Representative's responsibility.

I would never think of advertising how good my product is by telling stories of how some people don't use it right. I would tell of my products strengths and how to use it correctly for the best results. Wouldn't you?

A J Mako

03-27-2007, 10:57 AM

If I advertise a product and when the customer gets there finds out that I don't have that product and have nothing to offer...well that's just being a bad business person.

And what if you advertise a product, the product on your shelf is what you are sure is the product you advertised, but really just looks like it, and then the customer discovers they bought the packaging but didn't get the prize? What do you call that?

What do you call it when the manufacturer sells you a product, promises you: 1) it'll sell itself, and 2) we'll give you whatever help you need (tech support, advertising, customer service, promotional materials), and then you find out: 1) you're alone, and 2) their promises were just to get you to buy the product.

Yeah, I know, bad business.

If a scout and his family come to a unit and expect to see the scouting program and it's not there then shame on the leaders of THAT unit. They have not earned that family's membership. Especially if they promised scouting and then offered an inferior product regardless of cost. If that sounds like a unit you know I guarantee they are either untrained or uninterested in serving the youth of the community. Those people need to change or be changed and that is the Charter Organization Representative's responsibility.

Okay, so it's the units fault if their Unit Commissioner doesn't do his job and help them improve their program? It's the unit's fault the district is more focused on something else, sold the unit leaders a bill of goods and didn't deliver? Hey, I agree, it's ultimately the COR's responsibility, which is what I've been saying in this thread. My responsibility is to make sure the council/district make good on the promises they made through the charter agreement--to help my organization provide the product we've advertised.

I would never think of advertising how good my product is by telling stories of how some people don't use it right. I would tell of my products strengths and how to use it correctly for the best results. Wouldn't you?

Well, the problem here is that user forums aren't a sales device. I'll be the first to admit I'm not even a okay salesman. I've spent most of my career in customer service--not sales. My focus has been on helping customers use the products they've been sold, and a big part of that is helping fix problems. User forums are a customer service device. The sales side is the flashy (no pun intended) side of the web site that has all the cool pictures and basic information the customer needs to decide whether or not to buy. Once they buy, the user forum is one place they can go to get help using what they've bought.

And I can tell you one thing about user forums, some customers actually ask about the quality of customer service before deciding to buy. They want to know that they'll get help if they have a problem, and if all they get from customer service is more sales pitch, well, that's bad business too.

1st Mate

03-27-2007, 11:42 AM

The programs of the BSA are offered to every chartered organization using the same handbooks, the same methods, the same training, the same support structure, the same administrative structure, the same rules, the same national resources. How do some units flourish and some fail if everything about the program is identical...where is the difference? It is in the people selected as leaders.

If the situations you describe above fit the units you serve then I am sorry for you. But it does not describe the units I have served. Have I seen units like this, sure there are some. But in every case it was a result of the leader selection not the program. Leaders who do not learn or will not learn how to do their specific role in scouting are the broken cog that foul the works.

The scouting program is not difficult, but it has a structure and methods that if followed, work everytime.

I have worked with hundreds of scout units over the years as a volunteer, no unit ever gets into problems following the program, That's why getting more parents involved in scouting and getting them trained early on can be a great help to some units. We need quality leaders, more active parents gives a unit deeper human resource pools to draw from.

A.J.
You are the CR of a unit. The BSA has a training syllabus available that explains youur role in the unit, there is also the Troop Committee Guide to help answer nearly every question you need answered to do your job. You have the New Leader Essentials, the Guide to Safe Scouting, The advancement Committee Guide (policies and procedures), you have all the same resources athat every successful unit utilizes. If the unit you described above fits the description of the unit you serve then you as the CR need to take action. Because that unit should look a lot like that video.

If the unit does look like that video then you know that the program works when the right people are selected to lead it. In which case all your posts together will have no effect on solving a units problem... until someone in the unit either changes or gets changed, and you cannot do that for the unit from a forum posting.

It is also why it is its important the most leader screening is done at the unit level. The scout unit belongs to the charter organization. It is their pack or troop or team or crew or ship...not the BSA's. The counicl is there to help support, not to do the unit's work. It is your charter organizations unit, it is your charter organizations leaders. You as the CR need to carefully select YOUR leaders, that's why the adult application forms require at least three references, thats why it takes more approval signatures at the unit level than at council level.

d2butler

10-04-2007, 04:30 PM

Last year I rechartered a troop that had just faded away about two years ago. It is chartered by one of the local churches. When the DE and I went to the minister to talk about rechartering he was supportive of the idea but he also had no clue that the troop had failed over a year earlier. We got the paperwork signed and started meeting in the church. It became obvious to all of the Scouts and Scouters that the church was really uncomfortable with having boys in their building after hours so after about 3 months I was able to find a new meeting place. We haven't been to that church in 9 months now and they haven't missed us yet.

I would love to change the charter to the church where we meet now but the old church has to sign off on that. I don't know how to bring that up to the old church. I have a feeling that they really like to say they are involved with scouting (as long as they don't actually have to do anything) and there may be some resistance in releasing the charter.

1st Mate

10-04-2007, 07:30 PM

Let's take what you are asking and look at it from outside the scouting arena.

Let's say you are an employee at a locally owned McDonalds restaurant. The Restaurant owner has a contract with McDonalds to operate that restaurant.

You and some other employees decide that you would rather, eat at Burger King. So now you would like (as a diner at Burger King), to dissolve the contract between the local owner of the McDonalds restaurant and McDonalds corporation, and take their money and eauipment and give it to Burger King.

See where the problem is? As a scouting volunteer for the church you work for that church, (for as long as you and the church agree to it) but you have no ownership over the unit or the charter, The Church is neither Chartered to you or by you but diriectly with the Council and the BSA.

You are free to go to another place and start a new scout unit and transfer your membership, but that has no effect on the Church's contract with the BSA. The Church is free to continue to have a scout unit, and they get to keep ALL the money and ALL the equipment, unless you can convince them to let you take it to another charter organization. (It's like being in the chuch choir. You can choose to go sing for someone else, but you have to leave the choir robes and the music books behind.)

My recommendation is to go back and fix the problems with the current charter organizatiuon. Including getting the pastor to find a Charter Rep too act as the liason between the church and the troop.

By what you say in your post, the church wants the unit, there has just been very poor communications between the church and the troop , and the trrop shares equal responsibility in that problem, and in the solution.

Good Luck